Procedure and House Affairs Committee on May 4th, 2023

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Go ahead, Mr. Sheehan.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much.

I think the commission answered their own question. In my opening remarks, I stated that they created special circumstances and allowed half of northern Ontario to exceed the 25% variance. They acknowledged the challenges, but in doing that, they made the rest of northern Ontario have those challenges, an excess of those challenges.

I pointed to a MP who said that to drive the Thunder Bay circuit and back would be 1,000 kilometres. Well, by creating the Sault Ste. Marie—Algoma riding, it's 1,300 kilometres. It's flawed. I say to them to apply the special circumstance to all of northern Ontario, not half of it.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Go ahead, Ms. Lapointe.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I would echo what MP Sheehan said. There was an extraordinary circumstance riding in the northwest that existed already. In the original report of the commission, they did not speak to creating additional ones. In the final report, they created two new extraordinary circumstances, so there are now three such ridings in the northwest. As I said, that created a significant domino effect to the northeast. They should look at the situation as a whole for northern Ontario.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

There's one quick point I want to make. I want to draw to the attention of this committee that all 10 MPs, including the Conservative MPs, have penned a letter expressing their support for keeping the status quo, if you will, with the 10 ridings.

I just wanted to draw that your the attention.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

That's a very good point.

I think I'm going to share the rest of my time with my colleagues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's so generous.

Go ahead, Mr. Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank all the members who came here. I am very sensitive to their situation. It boggles my mind that the commission wants to reduce the number of ridings in their area, given the size of their ridings.

It is odd, Mr. Angus, I thought one of the ridings adjacent to mine was huge, being larger than Belgium, but it is nothing compared to yours, since you said it was bigger than France.

I have two questions for you.

First, are you unanimous in wanting to return to the status quo?

Second, what is the real impact on the francophone communities in your respective constituencies?

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

We are definitely unanimous about the status quo, but we are also open to making some changes.

With respect to your second question, which is about Franco-Ontarians, since Dubreuilville and Wawa would be put in the same riding as Sault Ste. Marie, that would dilute the francophone population. Right now, they are in the same riding as Kapuskasing, Hearst and others. So the change would lead to a reduction in services.

We know that Sault Ste. Marie was not the friendliest town to francophones at first. There were a lot of challenges there. I just think that, at the end of the day, it's about the dilution of the francophone community.

The question before that was about what is new. The new thing is that we've been provided with different changes from what was originally proposed, so we haven't had an opportunity to consult. First Nations were not consulted on the changes that are going to be impacting one of the ridings in Thunder Bay and causing some of them to be taken away. Again, when I look at Sagamok being split away from Massey and Webbwood, that is problematic. That is very problematic.

That's what I would add at this point.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I would like to add something about the francophonie.

As you can see from my submission, the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario submitted recommendations to the commission on September 25, including the recommendation to follow the provincial electoral map, for starters.

It also provided data on the proportion of francophones in each riding. For example, the percentage of francophones in Nickel Belt had been as high as 35%, but under the commission's proposal, it would be reduced to 33%. In Timmins—James Bay, 25% of the population has French as their mother tongue; in Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, the number is 23%; in Sudbury, it is 16%; and in Nipissing—Timiskaming, it is 13%. These are the largest ridings in the region.

Now, there is a proposal to divide francophones even further. The Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario, the Association canadienne-française de l'Ontario du Grand Sudbury and other francophone associations have said that the ridings should be kept as they are. As Mr. Angus said, how can you rebuild the relationship with the communities when they are divided? Now they want to divide minority francophones even more.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I would like to clarify something, Mr. Serré.

In the Hearst and Kapuskasing region, the proportion of the Franco-Ontarian population is 90%, and they are going to lose their representation in Parliament.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

In northern Ontario, we have a vibrant francophone community and it is very important that it be protected.

With respect to my riding, I can tell you that Sudbury is a welcoming community from an immigration perspective. We are one of 14 communities in Canada that facilitate the arrival of francophone immigrants.

It is very important that the changes do not diminish the importance of the francophone community in northern Ontario.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

I just want to add that my sister was the principal of St. Joseph French Immersion Catholic School, a french immersion school in Wawa, and it makes no sense that we're starting to separate these communities of interest.

A lot of the kids are schoolmates. They go to school together, they play hockey together and they go to church together, but we're separating the francophone communities with these mathematical formulas and this does not make sense.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent.

Go ahead, Madame Gaudreau.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I had finished speaking, until I heard the comment that provinces are starting a process and making adjustments based on all the criteria that we know. To me, this is a signal to follow the trend. There are probably good reasons for that.

I understand that we are at the last stage. However, I am hammering home the message that I want to see the recommendations and the documents that you are submitting considered, as a step is clearly missing. You are not the first to tell us this. For several meetings now, we have been told that nothing was said and that we then found ourselves faced with something completely different. There is a little bit missing. We need more information and discussion.

In addition to everything we already have and all the things you've brought up, if you're missing information, there's still time to add it to your submission. You are not alone in this. It can be as much in British Columbia as in Quebec. Something has to happen. Just because the number of ridings has been decided, that does not mean that the status quo should be kept on this. Personally, I still have hope.

You can speak to that.

[Carol Hughes, NDP, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

I would say that now is the opportunity to restore equity in northern Ontario. There will be a domino effect, but it's easier to do it now, before the changes are made. We're talking about one riding in all of Ontario, to preserve the 10 ridings in northern Ontario. It's not just about preserving 10 ridings; it's about representation and the rights of citizens.

I am not saying we should take Brampton, but it is an example of an area of 265 square kilometres where representation is already provided. A citizen can leave their house and walk two blocks to their MP's office. That is not possible in northern Ontario.

I would ask the commission to look at this again, for the sake of northern Ontario.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, do you have any quick questions?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I don't know if my connection is working well, Chair. Could you let me know if my sound is okay?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Your sound is okay, but your screen is slow.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay.

My last question is just to get advice from these folks about how the commission could work more inclusively with rural communities in terms of consultation.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I've gone through this three times, and it's been traumatic every time. The problem was that in northern Ontario we had to prove to very doubting commissioners that we had a right to representation, so we started with a flawed premise.

In 2010 the decision was that they were just going to rip the agricultural region apart because agriculture didn't matter and they were looking at numbers. There was a huge blowback. We had hundreds and hundreds of letters to say that the Highway 11 agricultural region had to be maintained because it was growing. This is a growing region. They're all connected economically, culturally and politically.

We brought that up, and we assumed in the first round that this region wasn't going to be ripped apart, because they were ripping everything else apart. Then in the second round they ripped the agricultural region in half to make up for their arbitrary thing.

The problem is that we have no ability to come to the table fair and square, because we don't know what the rules of the game are. We know we have to prove...and then they say, “Well, these are the rules.” We quote the Supreme Court and we quote the legislation, but we're never given the chance to lay out and discuss what are fair questions. How should ridings be set up? None of our ridings make sense, but we are never at the table; we're always playing defence.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Just quickly, the recommendation was to do what the province did in 2012. Why can't the federal government do that?

If you read the report from 2004, it's similar to the report from October 2022. As to representation and what the province did, if we don't do that shortly, it will be exactly as Charlie just said: In the next round there is not going to be representation of the first nations.

Just remember, northern Ontario is not just 90%. There are 110 first nations in northern Ontario. How many were consulted? A handful were, and that's really sad. That's going to be repeated. It has been repeated, and the province took it upon itself to do this three years prior to the redistribution. What people in northern Ontario are really afraid of is that now the province will follow the federal model, which is really worrisome.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's excellent. That brings us to time.

I want to thank you all for being here.

Just for the purpose of our report, we ask six questions. I know it's sometimes challenging to be concise. This is what I would like to hear from each of you quickly: Who are your neighbours? Who does your boundary attach to? Have you consulted them? Do they agree?

I have heard your comments about the status quo and the number of ridings, and you're all in agreement, so it does not need to be repeated.

I am asking whether you have consulted your neighbours and whether they agree with why you're here.

Go ahead, Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, I have consulted my neighbours in regions that are much larger than Europe.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

It's the same. I've spoken with the folks in the northwest. Right from the get-go we have been communicating, and I mentioned that there is a letter that emphasizes that.

It just blows me away that for my neighbour, Thunder Bay—Superior North, which is on one side, one house will have the above-25% variance and there will be a special circumstance, yet the neighbour right next door—