Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 1st, 2023

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Ms. Thomas, through you, Madam Chair, I want to pick up from my last round on a few points.

When I raised the fact that Minister Blair did not have his log-in to access the issues management note provided by CSIS that indicated that Michael Chong was being targeted by Beijing, you said something along the lines that my question wasn't grounded in reality, or that it was not the reality.

At page 27 of Mr. Johnston's report, it states:

Neither the Minister nor his chief of staff received the IMU. Both indicated (and we have confirmed with the public service) that they do not have access to the Top Secret Network e-mail on which it was sent.

What part of what I asked you is not grounded in reality?

[Jody Thomas]

The way I heard your characterization was that they simply didn't have a log-in and, therefore, did not access the system. They don't have access to the top secret network. The material is printed and provided to them as is appropriate.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Johnston goes on to further indicate:

It is certainly the most prominent, but not the only, example of poor information flow and processing between agencies, the public service and Ministers.

Would you dispute that?

[Jody Thomas]

No. It's why we're changing process.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It's quite late in the game.

To follow up on my last round, when I asked you about the July 2021 memo that indicated that MPs were being targeted by Beijing, including Michael Chong, you indicated that the memo had been presented to David Morrison, who was then national security adviser to the Prime Minister.

You then said that the Prime Minister was not briefed about it, had no idea about it. I would remind you that the memo from July 2021 was a month before the federal election campaign and involved allegations of interference targeting democratically elected members of Parliament. If that doesn't get to the Prime Minister, then what does?

[Jody Thomas]

Madam Chair, I've said I'm not going to speculate, and you have the opportunity to ask the incumbent of the job that question when they are here.

I ensure, as the national security and intelligence adviser to the Prime Minister, that he receives the information he requires, particularly on foreign interference but also on a range of other subjects.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

You said, when you last appeared before this committee, that the Prime Minister is briefed frequently on matters of foreign interference. The Prime Minister's chief of staff, Katie Telford, has said that the Prime Minister reads everything and that nothing is held back, and there we were, one month before an election in which MPs were being targeted by Beijing, and suddenly the Prime Minister hasn't been briefed. Suddenly the Prime Minister, who reads everything, hasn't read this memo.

How is that believable? What does it say about this Prime Minister and how seriously he takes Beijing's threats to our democracy and interfering with the ability of members of Parliament to do their jobs? They were being targeted because they were doing their jobs, speaking on behalf of their constituents and speaking on behalf of Canadians, and the Prime Minister suddenly, conveniently, was in the dark. What does it say about him?

[Jody Thomas]

You're drawing fallacious conclusions.

The Prime Minister cannot make determinations about information he was not given, and he was not given the information, period.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

The Prime Minister, who's responsible for the machinery of government, who establishes information flows to his office and who is so concerned about national security suddenly knows nothing. How convenient.

I think that Canadians can very easily draw the conclusion that this is a Prime Minister who doesn't take Beijing's interference seriously and that this is a Prime Minister who very conveniently acts as though he didn't know. I think he did know. I think most Canadians believe that he did know, and if he didn't know, it's just as big of an indictment on his total lack of leadership.

Moving on, are you involved in political discussions with the Prime Minister, the PMO, the cabinet or Liberal MPs?

[Jody Thomas]

I have a couple of things I'd like to say.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I asked you a question.

[Jody Thomas]

The Prime Minister was not provided that information. This isn't question period, so the conclusion that you drew is political; it's not based in fact. The Prime Minister wasn't provided the information.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

It's based in fact that he supposedly didn't know, and he should have known, and that's an indictment on his lack of leadership.

[Jody Thomas]

I think it's an indictment of the process—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry; I am going to just pause.

Ms. Thomas, please keep your train of thought.

Mr. Cooper, the buzzer has gone off. I did provide you your 12 seconds back that you had earlier given to me.

With that, Ms. Thomas, please, the floor is yours.

[Jody Thomas]

When political conversations are occurring, I am not generally in the room.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Mr. Turnbull, you have the floor.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think what we just witnessed was both fallacious arguments and salacious conclusions drawn from those deeply flawed arguments that Mr. Cooper, while pounding the desk, has been making in this committee over and over again. It's shameful, if you ask me.

I would like to get down to the facts.

Ms. Thomas, in Mr. Johnston's report, he says very clearly, “There is no intelligence indicating that the PRC took steps to threaten his family”, referring to Michael Chong.

Is that your understanding?

[Jody Thomas]

Yes, that's my understanding.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

There was no actual threat or action undertaken to realize that threat.

[Jody Thomas]

That is correct. There is no doubt the information that was provided to Mr. Chong is disturbing, but there was no action taken.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

We can all agree that it's disturbing to think of any elected official or their family even being considered in terms of threatening activity or intimidation, and I agree completely with you on that.

In terms of this top secret network email, which seems to be the source of a bit of confusion, you have said clearly and very consistently with Mr. Johnston's report that the ministerial direction in place at the time should have meant that CSIS would have briefed the minister at the time.

Would you not agree with that?

[Jody Thomas]

CSIS should have briefed him, yes, probably, and there was a role for the deputy minister in there.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Okay.

You're saying you don't have access to that top secret network either. I think you said you have access, but it's a lower level of access. Is that correct?

[Jody Thomas]

I can log into the secret network, but I don't log into the top secret network. Top secret material is provided to me by what we call a CRO, a client relations officer, from CSE.