Procedure and House Affairs Committee on June 13th, 2023

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Oh, that's wonderful.

I have one more question, then, with regard to the so-called police stations that were operating here in Canada. You already assured us that to your knowledge they've been shut down.

How do we prevent that activity from resurfacing in the future?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, to prevent it, you need strong relationships with the communities and making sure that people see it reported.

I'm very proud of the unit that went forward across the country. We took aggressive overt action—marked cars, people in uniform—with a lot of outreach in the communities to have people come forward.

Again, as I mentioned earlier, the investigation is ongoing and we invite the community, the people, to come forward to talk to us.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

In my learning about chairing committees and the process, it turns out that it's not just one microphone that stays on at a time. That is part of the parliamentary record that is kept if there is some commentary and so forth. We have an amazing technician who will operate the microphones and turn them on and off to ensure that whatever needs to be captured is captured.

I have raised concerns. It means that interpreters at times will hear multiple voices. I want to put that on the record that it is a concern. I'm sure it will be rectified and addressed, but it is part of the wrinkles that we are ironing out.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Gaudreau for six minutes.

As always, people can speak in the official language of their choice and take their time. The time needed for interpretation will not be taken away from Ms. Gaudreau's speaking time. I will give her more time, if necessary.

Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Thank you for that concern.

I'm all the more grateful for the witnesses' visit, since for the past several weeks we've been trying to demystify and better understand Canada's national security apparatus.

At the outset, several questions were answered. However, one that remains is a fundamental one: the RCMP's role in national security and interference.

Can you elaborate on this? I'll ask you more questions after your answer.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Yes, of course.

To explain it to you in the simplest terms, the RCMP's role is to intervene when interference falls into the criminal realm. That's the difference between us and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. The latter focuses on intelligence, and the difficulty is converting intelligence into evidence.

It's about taking the information provided to us not only by the service, but also by our international partners, and using it in our police investigations. It's not always easy, because we have to disclose everything. For example, if the service is working on a file that starts to look like a criminal case, that's when we work with the service. The file is transferred to us and we start our investigation.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Excellent.

How does it play out in this grey area, before the responsibility for the investigation shifts to you? As we speak, there are major changes on the threat front. I won't go into all the details.

What are your suggestions for a very precise communication link?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We have an excellent relationship with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.

It's not described or defined in steps, but we are in constant communication with the service. Some files are easier to transfer than others. Sometimes there are files that we continue to work on together. The dividing line isn't defined; it's not black and white.

We have the One Vision co‑operation framework so that the people involved come and discuss who takes the lead in the investigation and when. In the past, we've had cases where we've investigated criminally that have been referred back to the service so they can continue the investigation.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Are these meetings daily? Are they weekly?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

They take place at the national and provincial levels. They also take place when there are cases. I don't know if there's a regular frequency. Obviously, when we have cases, the frequency of these meetings increases. Whether at the national or provincial level, there are regular meetings when it comes to police investigations.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

In the beginning, you mentioned that you had several tools at your disposal. However, there are surely some tools you're missing. But we need to look to the future, and today is the time to identify the gaps so that, on the legislative front, we can step on the gas pedal.

[Commr Michael Duheme]

In the context of foreign interference experienced over the last two or three years, I think it's time to look at the tools we have. Earlier, I was talking about the Criminal Code. Do we have the right tools in the Criminal Code? Are there other tools we could use? I think we need to look not only at the tools from a police perspective, but also from a government perspective to determine what measures can be put in place to counter foreign interference.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

If I understand correctly, you don't necessarily have everything you need, whether in terms of human resources, expertise or legislation. You're missing some tools, aren't you?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Any investigation into foreign interference is complex and requires personnel, technology and various techniques. The work to get to the point where charges can be laid is complex. As I said earlier, any legislative or policy improvements in other departments that can facilitate the government's approach to countering foreign interference would be welcome.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The witnesses we hear from talk a lot about our intelligence culture compared with that of foreign countries. Do we indeed have a giant step to take to achieve an intelligence culture that can make us truly effective?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

We must continue to evolve and learn.

Three or four weeks ago, I was in Australia with the Australian Federal Police, the New Zealand Federal Police, the FBI and other American and British partners. The main topic of discussion was foreign interference, how to tackle it, the measures that are being taken and the different legislation in place.

I believe that, collectively, we have a lot to learn from our international partners. Some people could even learn from what we do here.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have one last question for you.

Earlier, I heard you talk about transparency. Like it or not, we parliamentarians want to look after democracy. What do you mean by “transparency”? What can we do to build trust with our constituents?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

When I talked about transparency, it was from the perspective of the importance of giving enough information to the public to ensure the excellent work that is done in security and law enforcement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I thank our witnesses for being here today and for their testimony.

My first question is this. Just out of curiosity, we are talking about a matter of privilege, one in which MPs are being targeted. As the RCMP proceed with their investigation about these allegations, how do you keep the members of Parliament updated?

[Commr Michael Duheme]

Madam Chair, before I ask Mark to elaborate on that, we do work very closely with the Sergeant-at-Arms at the House of Commons, we do work closely with the PCO, and we do work closely with the service to make sure that the information is provided.

I can't speak on behalf of the Sergeant-at-Arms as to how frequently he talks to the MPs, but I know, from a ministerial approach, we have the liaison teams that reach out to them on a regular basis with regard to the security of a minister, and we approach the topic of interference. On a grander scale, I'll pass it over to my colleague.

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Madam Chair, thank you for the question.

We are working in this space because we recognize that there's more we can do to communicate what we are seeing to all members of Parliament, and not just to ministers. You'll have recently seen some documentation about the threats. I know we've worked with the Sergeant-at-Arms. I know that the Sergeant-at-Arms provides briefings as well as tools to all members of Parliament when they become new members of Parliament.

We meet regularly to discuss the challenges of what we're seeing and to ensure that our information is included in those briefing areas. However, having said that, we do recognize there is more we can do, and we do commit to undertake further efforts to ensure that we are speaking to all of you as directly as we can with respect to the threats.

On the specific investigations, and on the individuals who have come to light recently who are facing specific threats, we do have to respect the privacy those individuals enjoy as individuals and to not allow their status as members of Parliament to further erode that privacy in these situations where they've already been subjected to unacceptable behaviours.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

I'm definitely not asking for details; I'm really interested in the process. I think, as parliamentarians, our job is to best understand the process and to understand where gaps are so that we can make recommendations that help us move forward.

It's very clear that this reality—and you've mentioned it before in the testimony—is quickly changing, and it's not something you were looking at the same way. We know that it's evolving quickly. It's challenging to catch up to it, but we still need to have the information and the tools to provide supports.

I'm just wondering, in terms of process, when gaps are identified at your level, how does this information get passed on to your intelligence partners so there can be that dialogue about how to make sure the flow of information is happening in an effective way that will protect Canadians regardless of whether they're an MP, a citizen or a permanent resident?

[D/Commr Mark Flynn]

Madam Chair, information flow with our partners is one of the things that actually I'm quite proud of. We meet.... I don't know what the count would be, but it's at least dozens of times a week where we are at a director, a director general, an ADM or a DM level meeting with our partners to discuss the national security threats to Canada and to inform what we are doing to combat those threats.

There are regimented meetings and regimented processes for that, and then, when we have unique things that come up in-between or have highly volatile situations, those generate ad hoc meetings where we sit down and speak about the problem and collaborate on the solution.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

We've had diaspora community members testify that, when they bring forward concerns about issues of foreign interference and about how they're being targeted, they're not really getting the assistance they perceive that they need. I think that's really important. I know Jenny Kwan has talked about this a lot—the fact that she has been targeted—but she has the voice of an MP, so to bring this awareness to people about her experience is a lot easier. There are many in these communities who can't do that and who don't have the same ability to bring forward their concerns.

I'm just wondering, do you require more tools—we talked about this earlier—to address this issue? How do you connect with other parties like CSIS and other intelligence folks to check if that member who has come forward to you at that community level is being targeted? How does that work?