Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Stéphane Perrault]

Madam Chair, I think it's important to emphasize that it is important for Canadians, and only Canadians, to be paying for regulated activities. That is what the act requires.

It does not prevent Canadians from using platforms that may be situated elsewhere. If any member has information regarding individuals outside Canada who incurred regulated expenses in relation to the election, I encourage anyone to bring that information forward to me or the commissioner.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that exchange.

Now we will have our final questioner for our time together.

Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Mr. Perrault, I understand that perhaps there have been some pay delays for some of the staff who worked the 44th general election. Could you tell us a little bit about how those pay delays are being resolved and whether they might possibly have any impact on people's desire to work for Elections Canada in future elections?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

That's through the chair.

Mr. Turnbull, perhaps you could make it a little bit easier for the last round.

Thank you.

Mr. Perrault, go ahead, please.

[Stéphane Perrault]

There's excellent news and bad news in that regard.

Overall I think we're doing quite well. Ninety-eight per cent of workers were paid within four weeks. I think that is extremely good given the volumes we had.

The difficulty is with the remaining 2%. In every election there are problems with missing information or inaccurate bank account information, for example. The challenge arises when the returning officers close their office early and then do not have access to this information. It's locked up in sealed envelopes or boxes that are being shipped to headquarters and it's just not possible to access.

There's always a bit of work and it's really unfortunate for those who have given their time and who expect that money. So if there are still people out there, we do have a call centre to manage those situations and to make sure we deal with the exceptions. They truly are exceptions, and they are based on missing or incorrect information that prevent the processing of money.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

That sort of relates to my next question, Madam Chair. It's not on the same track in terms of employee pay or pay for workers but it is in terms of disinformation and misinformation.

Previously, Mr. Perrault, you spoke about things being mostly online, and I think this was in your response to Mr. Barrett's line of questioning earlier. Could you give some examples, from the monitoring, of what types of misinformation or disinformation were present online or were typical?

[Stéphane Perrault]

There was quite a bit of content online, often not quite accurate. It might have had to do with the rules of voting, things like whether it was permissible to bring your pen rather than using a pencil. It might have had to do, in some cases, with the dates of voting. We saw a lot of misinformation regarding which COVID rules were applicable, some suggesting that you needed to be vaccinated in order to vote.

This is the kind of misinformation that we actively try to correct. We do push out proper information and we encourage all Canadians to turn to Elections Canada to find the correct information on ways to vote and how they can vote.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault. I appreciate that.

Was it an attempt to throw people off in terms of whether it was safe to vote or they could actually vote? So, was it really to deter people from voting? Would that be fair to say?

[Stéphane Perrault]

I think it's very difficult to impute motivation when you see what's written online. There's a lot of confusion. There are conspiracy theories. Every election we get a fairly significant amount of conversation around pencils being used to erase votes. We've disproved those many times, but they live out there.

By the way, we get the same stories when we speak to colleagues in the U.K.—they call it “Pencilgate”. They're the same people who push the same information across borders and they'll find other ways in different countries.

It's not clear what the motivations are. If there were a case in which we clearly saw an attempt to mislead voters, there are offences in the act and we would refer the case to the commissioner. We focus more on getting the right information across than on looking at motivation.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

Through you, Madam Chair, this is my last question if I have time.

We've seen, over the last few weeks, the Conservative Party support a convoy of occupants in our capital city, a convoy that really has a stated intention of overthrowing a democratically elected government.

Do you have concerns about mainstream political parties supporting this type of anti-democratic rhetoric? How do you propose that we can protect our democratic institutions in the future against—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

On a point of order, Madam Chair, you mentioned previously to all members of the committee that they should be cautious about their choice of words and mindful that we invited folks to participate in a conversation with respect to the election laws in Canada. Your comments, Madam Chair, were made with a view to the ongoing debate that's happening in the House of Commons.

While Mr. Turnbull's comments seek to create a narrative indirectly that he would not be permitted to make directly, I just wonder if it is germane to the conversation at hand.

Obviously, Madam Chair, I reject the premise of the question—it's intentionally inflammatory. I think there's probably an opportunity to move on to constructive and on-topic questions for our guests.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Barrett, I appreciate your comments. I will just say that my comments earlier were to the tone and temperament I would like to establish for the PROC committee, so I will just maintain my focus on this committee and how we operate.

We know what the theme of today's committee meeting is, and I would remind members to stay on theme. I do believe that there might be a diversity of perspectives on whether this is or not, but it is Mr. Turnbull's time, and I would like us to be able to complete this round of questioning.

Mr. Turnbull, I'm sure you find your comments and questions relevant, and if not, I'm sure you will course-correct, always, and get to relevancy. Thank you.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and, through you, to Mr. Perrault.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Madam Chair, as you're well aware, we neither oversee nor manage; whether it's protest or occupation, I will leave others to qualify what's happening right now. Our role is not to comment on or oversee what's happening. That is outside of the election.

I will note that 91% of Canadians trust the results of the election and the management of elections by Elections Canada. It's a very high number. I think it's important that this trust be maintained, as it is a guarantee of the peacefulness of the transition of powers or the making of powers, depending on the results of the election. That is something that is very important to our democracy. I will leave it at that.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Maybe I can just concur with Mr. Perrault that I think protecting our democratic institutions is vitally important.

We've got some—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

We're getting feedback. I'm not sure—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to let Mr. Turnbull finish his comment, and I will come right to you, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

It's a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Madam Chair, based on the response the witness provided to Mr. Turnbull in questions, I'm going back to my previous point of order. That line of questioning created quite a bit of disorder in the room, which speaks to the issue that I had raised with you before.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

It's not a point of order—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'm sorry. I'm being shouted down, Madam Chair. There's a great deal of disorder in the room.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Barrett, I think you have made your point. I appreciate that.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I would just ask that the room be brought to order, Madam Chair.

Mr. Gerretsen and Mr. Turnbull are creating disorder.