Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Feb. 17th, 2022

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you.

I was just saying how we, in Canada, cherish the degree of civility that we normally experience when we go to the polls. We all know that most people in a room may disagree with us and don't vote the same way but there's a level of respect,

a calmness

—that takes place and that we need to maintain.

It was disturbing to see that. Hopefully, we nurture more civil behaviour at the polls.

There was a fair amount of aggression. There were also a few cases of physical assault, and that's not what we want to see.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

I certainly note that the level of vitriol in the past election seemed to be far greater than the one before. I certainly experienced much of that aggression and rhetoric in my community. It's deeply concerning for volunteers as well who are participating and who don't sign up for that kind of treatment. It's deeply concerning for me.

Also, along a similar line of questioning to Mr. Duncan's I'll ask you a question about some of the special or mail-in ballots.

I note that in your report on page 25 it states there were just over 114,000 special or mail-in ballots not returned or cancelled.

Can you provide some insight as to what would cause this discrepancy? For instance, is it safe to assume that some Canadians requested a mail-in ballot and then decided to vote in person?

To add to that, if you have a chance, is the 9% cancellation or non-return rate traditionally high or is it about average?

Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I will take that comment through the chair.

I can now understand, Mr. Perrault, the frustration and difficulty because we've been having elections for so long. This committee has now been meeting several times and I'm still working on making sure comments are addressed through the chair.

Mr. Perrault.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you.

The percentages of cancelled or not returned ballots is higher than in the past. If you look at the table on the next page it was 4% in the last election and here it's at 9%.

There is a difference, though. In this election, I did make some adaptations to the act because of the unique circumstances and did allow an elector who would show up on polling day and who had received a kit or applied for a special ballot but perhaps received it too late and perhaps did not quite understand that there was a drop-box service.... We did not turn those voters away. We had them swear an oath and we allowed them to vote—

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm sorry, Mr. Perrault.

[Sherry Romanado, Liberal, Longueuil—Charles-LeMoyne, QC]

My apologies.

There's a lot of side chatter in the room and I can't actually hear the witness.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

I'm going to remind members that we are in a public committee and we have asked these witnesses to come and exchange with us today.

I recognize that tensions are high but this is not what we usually come across.

I'm going to ask us to take a breath and refocus on the PROC committee talking about the election with the Chief Electoral Officer.

Mr. Perrault, the screen is yours.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

As I was explaining, given the unique circumstances this election met I adapted the legislation. So an elector who would come up on polling day and had applied for a special ballot, had not brought it, and misunderstood the drop-box service that we had, was allowed to vote on a sworn oath that he or she did not vote. We confirmed that by checking after the election, before the count was completed, that no special ballot had in fact been cast.

The separation within the 114,000, between those who simply chose not to vote and those who chose to vote by another means, is something that we need to look into. To do that we need to pry open all of the bags coming back from all parts of the country. That's a long process, but I'm confident that we will be able to report on that in the breakdown between those who chose not to vote and those who chose to vote otherwise.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you for that exchange.

Mr. Vis, before I go to Mr. Barsalou-Duval I will remind all committee members to be mindful of tone and commentary. We are here to obtain information so that we can improve our institutions and our systems.

Mr. Vis, your comments have been noted and I will definitely be more attentive to what you're asking.

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would also like to thank Mr. Perrault for being here. We are pleased to have a report from Elections Canada.

I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the people at Elections Canada, who had to face many challenges with an election in the middle of a pandemic, in a context where they had to turn around very quickly to find solutions to problems. In spite of everything, we can see that there was relative success, despite failures, because there is still confidence in our electoral system.

I would like to congratulate you on this. I'm about to ask you some questions that may be a bit critical—don't take them too hard, because we can always do better.

In your opening remarks, you addressed the issue of electoral map reform. This is obviously of interest to us, I would even say of great concern to us in the Bloc Québécois. In what is being proposed, Quebec would lose a seat. Since Quebec is a nation, we believe that a minimum weight must be ensured for Quebec to have a voice in Ottawa. We understand that the results are based on a formula and not on your discretionary power to establish the number of ridings per province.

That being said, given the particularities of Quebec and the fact that, in the Supreme Court and the Senate, for example, there is a minimal space reserved for Quebec, don't you think it would be fair for an adaptation to ensure that we have a relative weight in recognition of the national character of Quebec?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Barsalou-Duval, welcome to the Standing Committee on Procedure and House Affairs.

That being said, I would remind you that comments and questions should be addressed to the Chair. Thank you.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I am sorry, Madam Chair.

[Stéphane Perrault]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

First of all, as far as the confidence of the voters is concerned, this is something that has to be earned every time, but we are very happy to see the high level of confidence expressed, which is similar to what we have seen in past elections. This is good.

I apologize Madam Chair for making a small correction. We often talk about a proposal, but we understand that it is simply a mathematical formula that follows from the act.

The Constitution recognizes the general principle of proportionality in the representation of the provinces, while having, over the years, made certain accommodations for smaller provinces or for all sorts of circumstances. It is up to the political class, within the parameters of the Constitution, to find a balance between proportionality and interests other than proportionality. I don't think it's the Chief Electoral Officer's place to interfere in this debate. I have to work to support the commissions in their role, and I will do that with the data within the legal framework that is provided to me.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Madam Chair, given what has been described so far regarding the redistribution process, in a context where there has been no expressed will by Parliament regarding the future electoral map, I would like to ask Mr. Perrault if, for example, there would not be any accommodations, any changes made to this famous formula. As far as Elections Canada is concerned, if the redistribution process is started right away, is it because the government has indicated that there would be no changes?

[Stéphane Perrault]

Madam Chair, I am not aware of the intentions of any party or the government to introduce bills. I know that the Bloc Québécois has introduced one.

Periodically, the amending formula has been revised relatively frequently, but not every 10 years since Canada was founded in 1867. It is not a constant, it is not necessarily reviewed every time. That's all I can say about that.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

I understand, therefore, that Elections Canada has not received any communication from the government as to whether or not there will be any changes to the formula.

[Stéphane Perrault]

No, there is no communication in either direction.

[Xavier Barsalou-Duval, Bloc, Pierre-Boucher—Les Patriotes—Verchères, QC]

My next question is still related to redistribution, since we are talking about it, but there are other subjects that I would like to raise with you. This is an observation rather than a question. We have received many complaints over the years from citizens who lament the fact that their city is divided into two, three, and even four ridings. These are not cities with 100,000 inhabitants, but often cities with 15,000, 20,000, 30,000 or 40,000 inhabitants that are divided into several pieces. This means that local issues become problematic in terms of representation, in terms of who we can talk to, or who we can go to when we have problems. For local representation, even for elected representatives, this creates a lot of confusion.

I would simply like to say that I hope we will be sensitive to this, and that there will even be a directive from Elections Canada to try, as much as possible, to prevent communities from being cut into several pieces. In my riding, Boucherville has already been split in two, and I could also talk about Saint-Hubert, which was split in three in the last election. These are not very large cities.

I understand that you can't fit Montreal into a single riding, but I think there are many other places where you can do it while respecting the territory of cities and communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Mr. Perrault, you have 40 seconds left to answer.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I'll keep it short.

I do not disagree, but I want to make it clear that we have no role in this and we never give instructions to the commissions. The commissions are chaired by a judge. We give them training tools, which includes the act. The criteria in the act recognize the importance of communities of interest, and that certainly includes respecting municipal boundaries. Once they are equipped with these tools, the commissions have complete independence in the exercise of their powers. I do not in any way instruct the commissions in their work, I simply equip them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bardish Chagger]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Blaney, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and of course as always through you, I would like to ask several questions.

First of all, I thank our witnesses for being here today.

My first question is around student participation. In the last election, there was no voting on campus. I heard a lot of frustration about that across my region and into other regions. When I looked at the notes, one thing I read is that it felt like there wasn't enough time because the fixed election wasn't there.

I'm just trying to get clarity. Does that mean campus voting will only be available during elections with fixed election dates? Is there no other way to start to prepare for opportunities when there may not be a fixed election date?

This just seems like a significant loss for young voters to be engaged.

[Stéphane Perrault]

I hope I can speak to it fully because it is an important issue. Campus kiosks are an initiative that we put forward because we believe it's an important one.

I just want to do a minor correction. There was voting on campuses, certainly for those who resided there, in some locations. There were returning offices near most campuses, if not on the campus and many times within the perimeter of the campus. There were not the special ballot campus kiosks that we offered for the first time on a national scale in 2019. I do wish to offer that in the future.

The context of this election was somewhat unique. When we began planning for it, essentially in the summer of 2020 in the pandemic, campuses were closed. There was no option of working with post-secondary institutions to set up arrangements for locations. They were not in that mindset, nor was anybody else. As we evolved in the pandemic and as we got into the summer prior to the election, there was talk about opening campuses. It was only then, in June, that we began looking at ways to do that.

Certainly right now we're in a different situation. We will start communications with campuses very shortly to try to settle in advance on agreements for locations to hold campus kiosks, even if it's a snap election. My goal for the fall, if there is a fall election, would be to have campus voting with special kiosks.

I do emphasize the fact that it has proven to be difficult in the past to obtain arrangements. It's easy to get commitments and agreements in principle from universities. It's much more difficult to negotiate the lease arrangements and the legal parameters of the arrangements so that we can have an agreement. It's even harder if we don't know when that vote will take place.

We will do our best efforts and it's certainly my commitment that we move toward having campus kiosks in any election. I do want to manage expectations. It is possible that we will face difficulties in a minority context.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I really appreciate the witness's answer.

Another question is specifically around rural and remote communities. I didn't see a lot of information in the report that addressed that specifically. As a member of Parliament, I represents a larger riding in British Columbia with a lot of small communities in some very remote locations. Some locations take more than just a ferry to get there.

Could you talk about what challenges were seen in those communities? I've heard anecdotally in my region that a lot of the people who usually work on elections were older, were concerned about COVID and didn't feel safe doing the work that they were either paid or volunteered to do. I expect that if I was hearing that in my riding, Madam Chair, they must have been hearing that in other parts of the country.

Could I hear about the challenges that rural and remote communities are facing and what actions, Madam Chair, the witness is taking to address those very challenges?