Evidence of meeting #33 for Procedure and House Affairs in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was political.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Perrault  Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer
Simard  Commissioner, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
Bisson  Deputy Commissioner, Operations, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
Richard  Executive Director and Senior General Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Canada Elections
Charles Burton  Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual
Andrea Lawlor  Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, McMaster University, As an Individual
Lori Turnbull  Professor, Faculty of Management, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

11:50 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

From my perspective, there's a balance to keep in mind when it comes to rights and freedoms. I think that Canadians, whether individuals or groups, don't necessarily plan to get involved in an election that isn't always on a fixed date. They can get engaged and participate.

If we were to require a system that would only allow them to use regulated funds, that is, contributions made for that purpose, that would force them to develop a fundraising activity in advance. That would create organizations armed with a fundraising capacity in case they ever wanted to get involved.

Beyond issues of rights and freedoms, I ask myself the following question: Do we want all organizations in Canada to become part of this constant fundraising machine in preparation to possibly get involved in an election?

I think it's important to be careful. I very much appreciate the concerns that Mr. Cooper has raised, but I would urge caution before going any further.

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Given what has been set out in Bill C‑25, do you think we're actually going far enough?

11:50 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

I wish I could guarantee that, but I can't. That's the recommendation I made, and I think we'll have to see in practice whether it needs to be strengthened. That's the nature of the legislative process. We go through experiences, and we improve things.

However, I think it would be a considerable improvement in terms of the system's integrity compared with what we currently have. It essentially means that groups doing fundraising could no longer use funds that come from abroad. That would solve that problem.

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Was your recommendation based on an experience here in Canada, or did you also draw inspiration from things that are happening abroad?

Are you aware of any practices related to this?

11:50 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

Since 2015 in Canada, concerns have been raised about groups receiving funding from various sources, particularly in the United States. I'm not saying that it was in bad faith or malicious, but these groups have the ability to intervene with foreign funding, which raises concerns. Add that to the issue of foreign interference that we're seeing these days, and I think it becomes urgent to address these problems.

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

That brings me to the second point I wanted to discuss.

In La Presse, today or yesterday, Stéphanie Grammond informed us that Russia injects or spends between $3 billion and $4 billion a year to spread misleading information, and we can see that it's working. It's being discussed all over the news media. Canada reportedly spends $20 million to $30 million to counter this interference. Artificial intelligence also makes their job much easier. Now, bots can create this false information.

With the proposed Bill C‑25, do you think we're on the right track to counteract this interference?

11:50 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

I think it's one part of the work that has to be done. That work is much larger. I think we need to look at it from the perspective of public education and awareness. Young people have to learn, as soon as they start school, to be better equipped to deal with the world of information they're going to grow up in.

I think the bill makes some contributions, but the problem is huge. It's complex, and it requires a lot more than that.

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Yes, absolutely.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

There are 30 seconds left.

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Okay.

Safeguards are being put in place to counter illegal attempts to influence electors' votes. The bill provides for that, but not only when elections are called. These measures also apply at all times.

What are your thoughts on that?

May 7th, 2026 / 11:50 a.m.

Chief Electoral Officer, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer

Stéphane Perrault

That was a recommendation I made. The provision, which was adopted in 2019, if I'm not mistaken, was limited to the election period. However, we see that influence activities aren't necessarily limited to that. I think that means it was necessary to make that change. That's what I had recommended.

Élisabeth Brière Liberal Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Perrault.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much.

I would like to thank our witnesses.

Before we suspend for a couple of minutes, I hope to present the budget that was circulated to committee members.

Is there any opposition to the budget? Seeing none, it is carried.

We'll suspend for a few minutes.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

I call the meeting back to order.

Welcome back.

I'd like to introduce our second panel. As individuals, we have Charles Burton, senior fellow at Sinopsis. We also have Andrea Lawlor, associate professor in the department of political science at McMaster University, who is joining us by video conference. We have Lori Turnbull, professor in the faculty of management at Dalhousie University.

I'm sorry. This troubles me every single time, Professor Turnbull. Even though I pronounced “Dalhousie” that way, I still hold on to the fact that the St. Catherines pronunciation is right. Mr. Burton understands, having spent some time in St. Catherines.

Anyway, on that note, I will turn to you, Mr. Burton, for five minutes, please.

Dr. Charles Burton Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service has characterized foreign interference by China as “the greatest strategic threat” to Canada because of its “pervasive, persistent, and sophisticated state-sponsored threat activity targeting Canadian democratic institutions”. The CSIS 2025 public report, which was tabled in Parliament on May 1, continues to identify China as the most active and sophisticated source of foreign interference and espionage in Canada.

Bill C-25 responds to the specific evidence of Chinese influence and interference in Canadian federal elections, centred on intelligence assessments from CSIS, reviews by the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, and Commissioner Hogue's Public Inquiry into Foreign Interference in Federal Electoral Processes and Democratic Institutions.

The urgent necessity for legislation to address the current Chinese regime's challenges to the integrity of our democratic process is underscored by two escalating threats. One, under party general secretary Xi Jinping—

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

I'm sorry. I'll stop you there for a second. I know it's challenging with the mics, but be careful when you're flipping pages not to hit them.

Thank you so much.

12:05 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

I did that the last time I was here. I'm sorry. I'm a slow learner.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Please continue.

12:05 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Sinopsis, As an Individual

Dr. Charles Burton

Number one, under the party general secretary, Xi Jinping, the Chinese regime has vastly expanded the resources of the Chinese Communist Party's United Front Work Department's foreign operations. Working alongside the Ministry of State Security, this apparatus actively employs covert, coercive and corrupt means to undermine Canadian democratic institutions in the favour of a hostile autocratic regime.

Number two, rapid advances in artificial intelligence and facial recognition technology are acting as force multipliers for China's subversive machinations in Canada.

This bill is about countering bribery, intimidation, misleading publications, unauthorized computer use and social media posting of deepfakes originating inside and outside Canada.

Looking at the specific language, we have, for example, the proposed amendment to section 282.4 of the Elections Act—in the bill it is clause 8, about general elections—which says that foreign entities or powers cannot “unduly influence” electors by knowingly incurring expenses to promote or oppose candidates, potential candidates, parties or leaders.

Then we have the proposed amendments to section 349.95, about the pre-election period, and section 358, about the election period, which in the bill are clauses 19 and 23: “A third party shall use only contributions from Canadian individuals to pay for regulated expenses and shall use, as regulated expenses, only property or services that are contributions from Canadian individuals.”

All of this is high-flown language, but the practical question remains: Once Bill C-25 becomes Canadian law, will it empower CSIS and the RCMP to successfully investigate and prosecute the strongly alleged illicit campaign financing and covert interference by Chinese diplomats and their proxies in ridings such as Vancouver East, Richmond East—Steveston and Don Valley North?

There is the CSIS report from December 20, 2021, cited by David Johnston in his report as independent special rapporteur on foreign interference.

Sympathetic donors are also encouraged to provide campaign contributions to candidates favoured by China—donations for which they receive a tax credit from the federal government. Then, the CSIS report from Dec. 20, 2021 says, political campaigns quietly, and illegally, return part of the contribution—“the difference between the original donation and the government's refund”—back to the donors.

To date, none of the individuals—a large number of individuals—implicated in these very serious allegations have faced consequences. None of the Chinese diplomats involved have been declared persona non grata, and non-diplomatic proxies for the Chinese regime have yet to be held accountable in a Canadian court of law.

In the absence of a robust foreign influence transparency registry, in these aspects, Bill C-25 risks being more performative than substantive. I wonder if these proposed amendments to the Canada Elections Act can effectively address the credible threat that agents of the People's Republic of China pose to Canada's electoral process.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I thank the excellent committee interpreters for their work.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much.

Professor Lawlor, you have five minutes, please.

Dr. Andrea Lawlor Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, McMaster University, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Dr. Andrea Lawlor. I'm an associate professor in political science and in the master's of public policy, digital society, at McMaster University, though my comments today represent only my own views. My research focuses on third party finance, elections administration and public trust in political institutions.

I thank the committee for the invitation to speak on Bill C-25. I'll speak largely in support of the direction of the bill but also point to some limitations that, if addressed, can greatly enhance public confidence in Canada's elections infrastructure.

The bill contains many updates to the Canadian political finance regime, consistent with recommendations made by Elections Canada following the foreign interference commission, which would better protect the electoral ecosystem against threats of domestic and foreign interference.

On third parties, I acknowledge the addition of the “own funds” provision, which permits third parties to use their own money in regulated expenses, as long as it does not exceed 10% of the group's annual revenues. Restricting the acceptance of prepaid cards and cryptocurrency is also a positive change, though I would highlight that this does not entirely close off the possibility of foreign funds.

The increase of the investigative and disclosure powers of the commissioner of Canada elections and their ability to levy greater administrative monetary penalties will give electoral administrators the ability to address contraventions of the act with greater efficacy. I would equally encourage the legislature to ensure that increases to these penalties continue to reflect the economic environment, as it is always a risk that underpowered AMPs may be seen by malevolent actors as the cost of doing business.

I would point to the enhancements to part 17.1 of the act that bring nomination and leadership contestants into the act on prohibition against false or misleading information. Changes that address deepfakes and AI-generated images move in the right direction, though I would caution that there are more ways for AI to be leveraged by bad actors to disrupt Canadian elections than the act currently contemplates.

Perhaps of greater importance, however, are the amendments made to the act around personal information data handling. I support changes that require parties to create security safeguards where there is a real risk of significant harm to an individual involved in a data breach, though “significant harm” excludes many violations to privacy that could still suppress democratic participation. Yet, I would argue that, even under this new legislation, too little is being required of political parties when it comes to protecting voter information. As this committee well knows, political parties are private organizations. Although they are the recipients of considerable public monies, they do not fall under PIPEDA.

At present, data-driven campaign practices such as microtargeting, precision ads and voter relationship management platforms have virtually no oversight and no mechanisms for disposal of data, for right of access, for ability to obtain corrections or for citizens to withdraw their consent to the use of their data. While the act does require parties to disclose data breaches and imposes some technical safeguards, these remain limited. Most concerning is that the new provisions around data safeguards are reliant on parties passing their own internal policies that contain these measures, rather than by statutory requirement.

When we consider the vast volume and variety of data that parties collect on Canadians beyond standard demographic factors—which may include religion, number and age of children, and personal economic data—it is not difficult to see the potential for exposure. Indeed, the recent data breach in Alberta, where personal information of millions of Albertans was made available in an online searchable database, highlights that internal party mechanisms may not be sufficient to protect voter data, and they give the public little recourse. The legislation can proactively address this by standardizing breach notification practices and by creating strong prohibitions around the sale, transfer, disclosure and use of personal information and strong penalties where those laws are contravened.

Finally, I would emphasize a concern around oversight and enforceability. Canada's Privacy Commissioner has been given no new powers to work alongside Elections Canada or the commissioner, missing an opportunity to leverage the body that has expertise in privacy auditing and enforcement.

Other jurisdictions, such as the EU, the U.K. and New Zealand, have strong privacy protection laws, including GDPR and ICO guidance. Quebec and British Columbia have been leaders in protecting citizens from parties' non-commercial uses of personal data, but Canadians are looking to the federal government to provide leadership.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much.

We will start with the Conservatives and Mr. Cooper.

No, I'm sorry. Dr. Turnbull is next.

My apologies, Dr. Turnbull. You must think I'm bullying you with the Dalhousie jokes and then excluding you.

You have five minutes, please.

Dr. Lori Turnbull Professor, Faculty of Management, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Thank you, everyone.

Thank you to the committee for inviting me to be part of the conversation.

I think the measures included in Bill C-25 are very important to the health of democracy in Canada, and I welcome the chance to talk about this in more detail.

I need to start with a disclaimer. As you know, several of the measures contained in Bill C-25 have connections to the report of the Public Inquiry into Foreign Interference in Federal Electoral Processes and Democratic Institutions. It was my pleasure to serve as one of the four members of the research council who worked with Justice Hogue throughout the course of the commission and in the creation of the final report. While I could not be more excited and more proud about my connection to that exercise, I want to stress that I'm here today as an individual. Nothing I say should be interpreted as reflective of how Madam Justice Hogue feels about anything or how anybody else who worked with the commission feels.

The scope of Bill C-25 is wide-ranging and contains measures aimed at dealing with foreign interference, ballot manipulation, disinformation, the misuse of personal data and other things. I'm sure we'll get to all of that, so I'm going to limit my opening comments to one thing that I wanted to raise about the bill.

It would extend the reach of the law, and therefore Elections Canada, further into the span of activities run by political parties, specifically nomination and leadership contests. For example, the bill would extend the prohibition on the use of broadcasting stations outside of Canada to influence voters to the nomination and leadership contests and contestants. It would extend the ban on the use of foreign funds, services and property for promoting advertising to leadership and nomination contests and contestants. It would also amend the definition of partisan activity in section 349 to include leadership contests.

This is a really important part of the bill, because it recognizes that those nomination and leadership contests are not solely the purview of political parties, but they are really important parts of our election process. Without those measures, the only way Elections Canada provides any oversight of the leadership and nomination contests is largely through watching the money, whether it's through contributions and spending or with candidate registration in the nomination process. Once the party confirms the candidate, they tell Elections Canada, and then the name is on the ballot, obviously. Because of the emergent challenges we have, there's a need to think about going a step further. The bill does that, at least in an initial way.

We all know that nomination and leadership contests have become the subject of some media attention in recent years. That is often because there's a concern that they are a vulnerable part of the election system and could even be a target for different types of interference, including foreign interference. An editorial in The Globe and Mail on November 27, 2025, referred to these exercises as “a massive weak spot in Canadian democracy” because they are “almost completely unregulated.”

Parties tend to resist the infiltration of Elections Canada officials into their nomination and leadership contests, arguing that they are private clubs that run their own affairs. There's a lot of value to political parties being able to run themselves according to their own values. It means that Canadians have a real choice between parties. It's important to do that. There's also an increasingly complex grey area where a private club is also a custodian of public office, which is what makes it so compelling to so many people. We need to think about different ways this space can be regulated appropriately.

I welcome the fact that the bill takes a step in that direction. I just wanted to flag that before we get into all the details of the bill.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Chris Bittle

Thank you so much.

Now we will turn to Mr. Cooper for six minutes, please.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am going to direct my questions to Mr. Burton.

The PRC, for all intents and purposes, has its largest diplomatic footprint in Canada. It has nearly three times as many accredited diplomats in Canada as it does in Australia, despite Australia having much stronger trade ties with Beijing, a comparable population to Canada's and a comparably sized diaspora community. In fact, the PRC has roughly the same number of accredited diplomats in Canada as it does in the United States.

Given that, is it fair to say that the reason Beijing has such an outsized diplomatic presence in Canada is that Beijing sees Canada as a soft target for its foreign interference and transnational repression activities?