Human Resources Committee on Oct. 26th, 2006

[David Wassmansdorf]

There's some crossover, and Mary tried to indicate that there is this crossover in some respects. But the problem is that if one wants to concentrate on residential construction and go through the apprenticeship program, that person has to go through the whole red seal program, whereas perhaps in the residential trade, the person doesn't necessarily need to know some aspects that are part of the ICI sector, as an example. So it's either one or the other. You either go all the way, or you don't do the program at all. That's part of the problem we have.

When we refer to elitism, the trades tend to be more unionized, whereas our industry is not unionized, and this plays a role in things as well.

Let me say this. When we developed the human resources development action plan several years ago, we did this with the help of the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, as well as HRSDC. When it came time to try to begin to implement this, it fell on deaf ears at HRSDC. So HRSDC started into something, invested in the action plan, and then walked away from it and ignored us.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I think it's another example of what we talked about this morning. We've had so many studies in various fields about all of the issues we're facing. Many of the studies are still sitting on shelves, and there hasn't been a lot of action.

[David Wassmansdorf]

We don't need more studies.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

No, I agree, and that's what I'm saying. I think you're just emphasizing something that we've been told.

Mr. D'Amours was saying earlier that we've been also told repeatedly that we need a system where we can have workers transferred, if they wish, to areas of high employment. Because we are hearing this message so frequently, we really need to listen to it and look at ways to implement that.

I have a question regarding the skilled trades again, in terms of the educational opportunities. What would your recommendation be, in terms of what the federal government can do as far as encouraging community colleges, or investing in capital expansion for community colleges, to increase the number of people that we can train in the skilled trades? Secondly, how do we convince young people that the trades you've mentioned are valuable and that they could be proud of their accomplishments?

[David Wassmansdorf]

Mary might be able to talk to this even more.

[Mary Lawson]

I wear another hat some of the time. I'm involved with George Brown College, so I work very closely with their technologies area, which of course deals with our residential skills to a great degree, although they offer some of the red seal trades in their program as well.

My belief is that without the national action plan, it's very difficult to fit all of the other pieces to a program. Once that is in place, then I think the capacity is there within the colleges—particularly the colleges—to carry forward with the training that's needed in our industry and probably for some of the people in the other areas too. There's a strong wish to train in those areas. It appears there's a wish for quite a few young people, but the pathway to get into the skills is very unclear.

We've always felt that we have to start working with young people at kind of junior high level, so in grades seven, eight, and nine, when they're starting to show which direction they wish to go with their education, not necessarily tied in completely. But because we lost shops and so on from our high schools, the kids just don't get a chance to touch, feel, and consider the kinds of education we're talking about. Perhaps we can influence that, so there's the opportunity to try.

There are a number of small programs in various parts of the country where our organization and our builders are working directly with schools or colleges on sort of pilot or demonstration programs, where young people are trying the trades. It needs to be expanded way beyond that, and I suspect this applies to other fields as well as ours.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

In terms of the apprenticeship program, there's the on-the-job component and the classroom component. We're providing initiatives for the expansion of the on-the-job component by apprenticeships grants and so on. Do you feel there is adequate capacity at the community college level to incorporate the in-class component as well, if this area expands dramatically?

[Mary Lawson]

Absolutely. The difficulty with the incentive programs as they've been set forward at this point is that they only apply to red seal, which really doesn't help our residential needs very much at all.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Are there ways in which we, as the federal government, could address that?

[Mary Lawson]

If we start with the action plan and getting it in place, that will give us all a framework to work toward. From my experience, certainly within the colleges, they're looking for that sort of plan as well.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Is that national action plan available in print somewhere? I haven't seen it. I'm a replacement worker on this committee today.

[David Wassmansdorf]

We did provide a summary to the committee previously, and we can provide the whole....

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Is that the summary you provided today?

[David Wassmansdorf]

No. The summary was provided previously, on September 6. The summary is in that portion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We would have it then.

[Cheryl Paradowski]

Mr. Chair, could I add a small point?

I know you weren't speaking directly to the skills trades, but we looked at some of the issues, and capacity is the one I talked about. For example, there's a need for meat cutters, yet programs are being cut.

You did touch on and sort of jump over the whole awareness side of things. The colleges may have capacity, but if they can't get enrollment in the programs, there isn't much point in increasing the capacity. I should just highlight that, certainly within the sector councils, a lot of our work in the past has been focused on that career awareness and on trying to get a broader message out.

Currently, funding is no longer available for those types of activities. I think that's something this committee should be aware of as well.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

[Inaudible—Editor].

[Cheryl Paradowski]

Yes, through the sector council program with Human Resources and Skills Development Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

My understanding is that some of the sector councils have been working at trying to get into classrooms in high schools and things like that, in terms of awareness. It's a real grassroots kind of thing.

[Cheryl Paradowski]

Yes, and those types of initiatives have been funded to quite a large extent in the past, but are not any longer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I have just a couple of questions, and I want to clarify something for Mr. Albrecht.

I know Mr. D'Amours has been opposed to any type of movement in that direction, as he believes they would like to try to find other jobs for other things in the areas they're in. That's just to clarify things in terms of where he's been--and Ms. Bonsant as well.

In terms of immigration, I'm personally very frustrated in terms of the slowness with which government works, period, in terms of being able to transition. We had someone sitting in your spot earlier, Mr. Maynard, and they talked about the policy of mandatory retirement for those aged 65 and how archaic that is in terms of when that was put in place. The fact is that it hasn't been in place for thirty years in the U.S. It hasn't been there in places like Australia for ten to fifteen years.

We've certainly talked to the immigration minister and we've talked to HR, and I know these are concerns. If we look at all these things, I think every presenter today mentioned them as important. It was almost unanimous.

I don't know if I misunderstood, but did you say that some of these measures that we talked about, whether it was older workers or immigration, were temporary measures? Are these issues going to address the concerns in the coming years, or do you look at immigration policy, if it's changed, as being a way to fix this, as a solution for the long term?

Two or three can comment on that.

[David Wassmansdorf]

For our industry, it is only part of a solution, and probably a fairly small part in the grand scheme of things. We do have temporary foreign worker programs in place in some parts of the country right now, like Edmonton and Calgary. Vancouver's also working on something, and we have a program here in Toronto called CREWS. It's a small part of the issue.

The bigger problem that we've had is dealing with the undocumented workers and how to address that aspect of things, but that's a discussion for a whole other day. It would only be part of—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I wasn't so much talking about the temporary, because I realize that is a temporary fix. I was talking about immigration policy in general. We're talking about undocumenteds and all these other things, so is that part of the long-term solution?

[David Wassmansdorf]

For sure. The point system was mentioned by Cheryl, but the point system is discriminatory against bringing people in for our trades, as well as Cheryl's industry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Good.

Ms. Reynolds.