Evidence of meeting #28 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was part.
Paul Gravel Coordinator, Education and Training, Canadian Home Builders' Association
As was mentioned before, the existing issue with the trades program and the apprenticeship program is that is geared in the end to the non-residential construction industry. So people go through a process of three or four or five years of in-class training and on-the-job training, and the only time they get a certificate of qualification is when they've finished all that. If somebody finishes when they have acquired the skills to work in the residential construction industry, they leave the apprenticeship program and go to work in the industry with no qualifications.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Obviously that presents a challenge in terms of the follow-through, which is a concern I've heard, that people starting trades apprenticeship programs don't always finish them. They move into work and employability and things, but they don't get a chance because of the process--or as you've said, maybe they were in residential versus commercial, etc.
Coordinator, Education and Training, Canadian Home Builders' Association
Yes, and the thing is that a lot of the talk that goes on deals with new construction. There are 12 million houses on the ground. They're occupied by people. They don't move, and they're only new once. The renovation industry is over $40 billion. I would like to have a qualified tradesperson come to work in my house--and I'm sure a lot of you would as well--and not the torn shirt, unshaven beard, the four-day-old beard, and sparks shooting out of the plugs and the switches and what not when they're working around the house, or a plumbing pipe dripping on your dining room table.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
My next question is with regard to trades, and it may not necessarily be applicable. Once again, it speaks to residential. How could we make the program better? We talked about maybe some of those trades don't qualify for residential, but how can we make the apprenticeship program better? We start people off in year one, that's great, in tools, etc., a little bit of a break, but we want to get people to finish some of the trades, some of the programs. What can we do as a government to offer incentives? Do we offer an incentive every year along the way? We talked about year one as a starting point, but can other things be done?
Immediate Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association
We need to try to steer clear of incentives. It needs to be sustainable for reasons other than that they're getting a couple of hundred dollars extra. Part of it is the whole notion that it needs to be apprenticed in the traditional sense. Workers can gain the skills in other ways in a process where there is mentoring and where there is leadership from somebody experienced in the industry. Part of the issue is that to go through an apprenticeship program, you have to work under people who already have their journeyman's card. There aren't that many people around--certainly in our industry there aren't.
Part of the aspect too is that sometimes as a home builder I get phone calls from people in my neighbourhood saying they have a son or a daughter who's thinking of finishing school and they'd like to give this a try, but I can't hire them directly. I hire subcontractors, subtrades to do that work. So there's that incohesiveness we have to address as well.
The whole process whereby people are mentored and trained has to be changed somewhat from the traditional apprenticeship system.
Conservative
Immediate Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association
It doesn't need to be red seal. Part of the problem is that they may start into that red seal program but won't finish it because they get gainful employment, making good money, having learned some skills along the way, and won't finish their program, but they don't get any recognition for that in-class work and that co-op work they've done along the way.
Conservative
Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association
I think we need to have recognition of a framer, for instance, which is always the best example in our industry, as an apprenticeable skill or an apprenticeable approach to the training; but it doesn't have to be that full red seal carpentry. If we can create that recognition for the broad range of skills within our residential industry, which covers off some of our renovation needs and some of those things, and give those people recognition and pride in their accomplishments—because many of them will never go beyond learning to be a contractor of their own, as a self-employed framing contractor or a performing contractor—they'll be more likely to go in that direction, unless they come back into a home building industry and become supervisory staff or builders, in the true sense. But we need to give them recognition for their skill, and that isn't there at the moment.
Executive Director, Canadian Food Industry Council
I just wanted to speak because we actually have a red seal trade in our industry as well, that of a baker. But we have much the same challenge, in that the way a baker looks in the grocery retail industry is probably only about halfway to what a red seal baker.... We actually have an approach that looks at staged recognition—and we're speaking with the Baking Association of Canada, which has very strong ownership in the red seal—so that recognition doesn't need to be only red seal.
The same applies to Mary's point. Can there not be other levels at which people are recognized, whether you are a level one baker, a level two baker, or a master baker, so we have more ways for people to gain recognition, so it will not be as if they've quit halfway and then get nothing, but have proceeded to a certain level of expertise that's appropriate for where they need to work? They should be recognized for that.
Immediate Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association
If I could, I'd just like to table a document, a request to HRSDC with regard to our human resource development action plan. I have copies here for all the committee members.
Immediate Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association
Great. Thank you.
Conservative
Immediate Past President, Canadian Home Builders' Association
Thank you.
Conservative
Coordinator, Education and Training, Canadian Home Builders' Association
It's just to pursue the point made with regard to the example of a framer.
A previous statement indicated that education and training are a provincial responsibility. In British Columbia and Saskatchewan, they have now recognized the occupation of framer; you can get a certificate of qualification as a framer in both of those provinces. They're also pursuing interior finishers, exterior finishers, and crib or foundation workers within the carpentry craft. So for each one of those you will be able to get certified, but only in those provinces. This is brand new.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much.
We have two more quick questions. Mr. D'Amours, and then Madame Bonsant.
Liberal
Jean-Claude D'Amours Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, to give me a few more moments. I will not be political.
Ms. Reynolds, I fully respect what you have accomplished, as well as your recommendations. This doesn't mean necessarily that I agree entirely with you on everything. I told you so, by the way.
You said earlier that in the case of a labour shortage in an industry or a business — and this might apply to everybody — we should advertise vacant positions for a certain number of weeks before being able to hire immigrants. I would like to know if, in your opinion, this proposal should be part of your recommendations or be added to them.
Senior Vice-President, Government Affairs, Canadian Restaurant and Foodservices Association
Well, in a sense, it is part of our recommendations in that we're saying we have to streamline the foreign worker permit process. Basically what we're saying is eliminate that requirement for advertising jobs. We're saying that if in that particular position in that particular region of the country the stats are there to tell Service Canada officials there's a labour market problem—and they're very aware of it in Alberta—why do we have to go through this, and why can't we have bulk applications? The majority of our members are small independent operators who don't have the ability to hire a consultant and go through this very expensive process for bringing in a few temporary workers. That's why we want to work with organizations like the Canadian Tourism Human Resources Council, whereby they would be the body that would actually do the administration of these bulk permits to help meet the needs of a number of different employers. That's exactly what we're looking for.