Human Resources Committee on June 13th, 2006

[Maryanne Webber]

We don't have a definition of poverty. We produce measures of low income, and there are a couple of different measures that are published. The one that's best known is based on what the average family spends on food, shelter, and clothing, plus 20%, and then we create a series of low-income lines with that. Then you look at the income level of the population and you calculate a rate of the proportion of people who are below that low-income cut-off. That's one measure.

Another one is looking more at how income is distributed. You look at the proportion of families that have less than 50% of the median income. That's a second measure.

There's a third measure that hasn't had a lot of visibility yet. It's called the market basket measure of poverty. That one is called a poverty measure. Human Resources and Social Development, HRSD, took a lead role in its development. It's really defined by building up a basket of what's thought to be required for a decent existence--what you need for food, shelter, clothing, and beyond that, as one big rough number. That measure is still in a state of development and we'll see where it goes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you for the short question with the long answer.

Anyway, we're going to move on to the third round--still five minutes.

Mr. McGuire, for five minutes.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

On page 10 in the graph on seasonal workers, everything is up--temporary, term, casual, seasonal. Why are temporary jobs or non-full-time jobs on the increase compared to what is actually happening here? How much of that is institutionalized?

The Canada Revenue Agency, which is a crown corporation, hire very few full-time workers any more. Everybody is casual, contract, or temporary. They have five of these scattered across Canada--Shawinigan, Summerside, I think Surrey, and another somewhere. Why are institutions, whether government or private, apparently, going to these temporary or contract seasonal jobs rather than creating permanent full-time employment?

[Maryanne Webber]

I don't know if we can answer that question, but what we certainly could do is provide you with information on where the growth has been greatest in temporary jobs in terms of province, industry, occupation. We can provide you with information on rates of pay of those jobs relative to jobs that are not temporary. I don't have that information right here, but we can certainly provide that.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Could you also make a connection or correlation between all these part-time jobs and the contribution that is making to the EI rate across Canada?

We get criticized for our unemployment insurance system, but it looks as if the whole economy is creating the demands on the program rather than lessening demands on the program. If government is creating demands on the program, why would it do that as an institutionalized effort to keep up the EI rates?

[Philip Cross]

If I understand, I think we've strayed from the seasonal worker with this concern about part-time work. I think your point, if I understand it correctly, is that because of the shift in the labour market that's creating more term and contract jobs, not enough income and people are supplementing it with employment insurance. Would that be...?

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

People will tend to rely more on employment insurance if there are increasing numbers of temporary jobs, contract jobs, casual and seasonal jobs. There's going to be an automatic heavier demand on the EI system.

[Philip Cross]

We don't know the correlation between the two, or how much this is contributing to EI.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Can a correlation be made?

[Philip Cross]

Given that EI regulations vary by region, it would have to be done at a very detailed level. One thing I'd also caution you about, concerning the increase in temporary and term and contract work, is that some of it is institutional change in the labour market. There's no doubt that there are people who hire more from temporary agencies, for example. Some employers want more contract work. Remember too, some of the increase in term or contract work is in construction. Something like 40% of construction workers are classified as temporary, because they're working on a job that has a specific ending to it.

People assume temporary jobs are sometimes bad-quality jobs, whereas most manufacturing jobs are permanent. If I were a construction worker in Alberta today, I'd feel a lot more secure about my job than a manufacturing worker in Ontario. I just don't think you can say that temporary is bad and permanent is good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. McGuire, you have 20 seconds.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

That's fine. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We're going to move on to the next questioner.

Mr. Brown, you'll have five minutes.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Thank you.

I read in the Statistics Canada report that even though employment has hit a 13-year high, many young people are still leaving the workforce, more now than in the last decade. That's the first thing I wanted you to touch upon.

The second thing is that the same report—I think it was released last week—indicated that the number of people who weren't working or searching for a job increased for the first time since 1996. Could you provide some insight into that as well?

[Philip Cross]

Generally, we've seen weak youth labour force participation rates over the last few years. There seems to be quite a regional divide on it. In particular, we've seen some declines out in western Canada and increases in the east.

Was the second part that you wanted addressed the increase in labour force participation generally?

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Yes, it's to know how it has increased while there's still an increase in people searching for jobs. The report suggested that for the first time since 1996 we've seen an increase in those searching for a job.

[Philip Cross]

I'd be surprised. There has to be some subset to that, because overall the labour force has been increasing. The participation rate has been increasing generally since 1996; it's not just something that happened last year. There must be some specific subgroup in there.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

In terms of those searching, though, has there been an increase as well? Do you recall? There was a suggestion that there has been.

[Philip Cross]

Do you mean of those searching unsuccessfully?

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Yes.

[Philip Cross]

I don't have that report in front of me.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

The next question I had was, what proportion of older workers is affected by mandatory retirement rules and regulations, given the growth in collective agreements? Has this changed appreciably over the last 20 years?

[Maryanne Webber]

I don't know of any survey at the moment that we do that would provide information on retirements that are specifically due to mandatory retirements and on how these have changed.

[Patrick Brown, Conservative, Barrie, ON]

Okay.

Among new Canadians who are working or trying to have their credentials recognized, do you have any stats in the medical field about what number of new Canadians we have who, because of regulations and professional bodies, aren't able to integrate into our workforce?

[Maryanne Webber]

It's possible that we could get some information from one survey that I'm thinking of, which is the Longitudinal Survey of Immigrants to Canada. They may have some questions on that. I don't have the information here, but we can follow up and find out.

That's a survey that's looking at people who've immigrated since about 2000, I think, and it's following them through time, looking at their labour market integration and also other aspects, and collecting information on how they feel about how things are unfolding. There may be some information in that survey. That's the only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, but we can follow up.