Evidence of meeting #72 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Claudette Pitre-Robin  Administrator, Association québécoise des centres de la petite enfance
Laurel Rothman  National Coordinator, Campaign 2000
Martha Friendly  Member, Steering Committee, Campaign 2000
Morna Ballantyne  Volunteer, Code Blue for Child Care
Sue Colley  Volunteer, Code Blue for Child Care
John Huether  Volunteer Member of Executive Council, Council of Champions, Success by Six Peel
Lorna Reid  Director, Early Years Integration, Children's Services, Region of Peel
Jonathan Thompson  Director, Social Development, Assembly of First Nations
Nancy Matychuk  As an Individual
Harvey Lazar  Adjunct Professor, School of Public Administration, As an Individual
Jay Davis  Barrie Christian Council, Mapleview Community Church, As an Individual
Kate Tennier  As an Individual

11 a.m.

Prof. Harvey Lazar

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have two preliminary comments. The first is to confirm that I'm here in a personal capacity. The second is to say to the committee that my research focuses on federalism more than on child care and early learning, so my remarks will mainly be focused on the intergovernmental dimensions of Bill C-303.

I understand that the sponsors of this bill are relying on the federal spending power as the constitutional basis for what would otherwise be seen as an area of mainly provincial legislative competence under the Constitution. I am also aware that legal counsel from HRSDC has already testified concerning this spending power. I am in broad agreement with their interpretation of its scope and nature.

I would add, however, that there have long been political--I emphasize the word “political”--differences of opinion concerning the appropriate use of the spending power, and these differences reflect varied perspectives about the nature of the federation itself. In recent decades, these differences have led to several admittedly unsuccessful efforts at constitutional reform that would have placed some limitations on this power. In a similar vein, when the non-constitutional 1999 social union framework agreement was negotiated by federal, provincial, and territorial governments, Quebec excluded, it included some limitations--modest limitations, it must be said--on the federal spending power.

My only point in this regard is that notwithstanding the constitutional support for a federal spending power, its use is politically sensitive, and judging the appropriateness of conditions attached to federal transfers often involves shades of grey, rather than black and white. That is why, of course, the use of the federal spending power typically entails consultation and negotiation with provinces and territories.

Turning to the bill itself, it appears to be modelled in important respects on the Canada Health Act. I have three principal sets of concerns regarding Bill C-303. The first is that the bill is not easy to interpret. For that reason, its impact is uncertain. For example, subclause 5(4) requires that the early learning and child care program of a province or territory will “...ensure that all children resident in the province or territory are equally entitled to early learning and child care services that are appropriate to their needs”.

This might reasonably be interpreted, at least in my view, as disqualifying the early learning and child care programs of most, if not all, provinces and territories because they almost certainly do not meet that definition of universality. I note in this regard that this definition appears to go beyond the definition in the 2005 agreements that the previous government entered into with provincial governments. You might look, for example, at the agreement between Canada and Manitoba dated April 29, 2005.

Similarly, the bill requires that a provincial or territorial program be of “high quality”. This requirement is linked to subclause 5(3), where the concept of quality is developed more fully. Whether in fact any province or territory could satisfy this criterion, however, is an open question. Recent research conducted under the auspices of the Institute for Research on Public Policy suggests, for example, that the quality of early learning and child care services in Quebec is uneven at best. While Quebec is not to be subject to the conditions of this bill unless it opts in, I mention this only because even that province, which is generally assumed to be a leader in this field, might have some difficulty fully satisfying this criterion.

My second broad comment is that the bill is intrusive relative to provinces and territories. Apart from its grandfathering provisions, the bill precludes for-profit child care delivery, and in so doing is reaching deeply into provincial jurisdiction in its efforts to discourage for-profit delivery. You've heard from at least one province, probably two, to that effect. I believe that this bill goes further than the Canada Health Act, as the Canada Health Act does not, at least in my judgment, preclude private delivery of publicly insured services.

My third category of comment is that Bill C-303 is one-sided relative to the provinces and territories, apparently ignoring the federal–provincial–territorial consultation processes called for in the social union framework agreement when Ottawa wishes to amend an existing federal-provincial agreement. Bill C-303 imposes new obligations on provinces and territories without offering incremental transfers, or even assurances that current transfers will be maintained.

I would point out in this regard that the federal government, initially through federal-provincial agreements for hospital and medical services, created financial incentives for provinces to expand vastly their public delivery systems of health care services.

Once this was established, the federal government gradually reduced its share of health care spending to the point of causing a huge federal-provincial-territorial brouhaha a few years ago. The federal government has since increased, very substantially, its cash transfers to the provinces and territories for health care, but this took several years of difficult and protracted negotiation.

I recognize that since this bill was not introduced by a member of the government, it cannot, or at least should not, contain spending commitments. Parenthetically, I would say whether it actually does contain spending commitments is a separate issue that I will leave to the lawyers to debate, but I do think the committee needs to consider how to ensure that the federal fiscal commitment is a long-term one in the event that provinces and territories stand ready to move decisively in the direction that the bill intends. Were I a provincial official, I would be very skeptical of basing the expansion of my public sector on federal financial incentives unless there was a strong long-term federal political and legislative commitment on the funding side. History teaches that if provinces do not do so, they can be left holding the bag.

On a related point, in the event that transfers are to be withheld or withdrawn, subsection 14(2) of the Canada Health Act at least requires the federal authorities to consult with the affected province before acting, whereas Bill C-303 appears not to afford the same opportunity to a provincial or territorial government before punitive action is taken. In this sense, Bill C-303 is more arbitrary than the Canada Health Act.

This brings me to my last point, Mr. Chair. Put simply, it's hard for Parliament, acting on its own, to legislate effectively--and I would emphasize the word “effectively”--in the federal-provincial arena when the federal government and the provincial governments are not directly involved.

Perhaps the intent of the bill is simply to send a symbolic message and help motivate provinces and territories to encourage the federal government to return to the bargaining table. If the bill is enacted and that is its only effect, I would applaud that result. However, given the stated policies of the federal government in this policy area, I am stymied as to how, as a practical matter, this could be brought about.

If this bill is enacted but does not lead to renewed federal-provincial-territorial negotiations, it's possible that it will just sit there, with the federal authorities enforcing it very lightly. After all, Bill C-303 does not require--and I emphasize the word “require”--the Governor in Council to withhold payments when conditions are not satisfied.

It's also possible that the federal government will enforce it, leading to cuts in federal transfers for child care.

What do I conclude? First, the impact of Bill C-303 is uncertain, with the risk of unintended consequences. Second, given the lack of commitment to new fiscal resources; given the lack of intergovernmental consultation processes called for by SUFA, the social union framework agreement; given the lack of a consultation procedure for a province or territory before its transfers are withheld; and given the ambiguities pertaining to its interpretation, Bill C-303 could create a new flashpoint in federal-provincial-territorial relations.

That completes my opening remarks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Dr. Lazar, for being flexible and working within that timeframe.

We're now going to move to the next group of witnesses. I have Mr. Davis and Mr. Thiessen. Gentlemen, you have seven minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Reverend Jay Davis Barrie Christian Council, Mapleview Community Church, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Let me begin by saying it's a privilege for both my colleague, Jeff Thiessen, and me to be here with you this morning. We're fairly new to the discussion at this level, for sure.

I will attempt to try to speak to you regarding some of the grassroots situations. Both Jeff and I, over a number of years, have put a number of resources toward early childhood care in trying to ensure that our children are very well cared for.

I am a minister in Barrie, Ontario, where my wife and I began a church ten years ago. We established this place of faith in a very fast-growing community, and quite quickly we realized that the best way to touch a community is to touch children--to really impact their lives, and get involved with them.

Barrie has a slogan that says that the city is the people. It's a great mission statement. Obviously there are all kinds of discussions regarding mission and vision statements out there, and Barrie is a prosperous, growing community--there's no question about that--but behind the growing city there are absolutely a number of growing needs that we began to encounter at a very grassroots level. My thinking over the last ten years has been that federally, provincially, and locally, governments have to really begin to understand what is going on at a very grassroots level, and there are some serious needs.

The scope of attempting to meet the needs is wide and varied and needs to be at least considered. There are many different options for touching the grassroots people, the people who really need help.

Economic and family vitality is absolutely what we're about. We are trying to focus on that. We are absolutely trying to do all we can to interact with families at a very base need. Our own assembly.... Again, I'll speak maybe three words: economic and family vitality, adequacy...whatever we do regarding the children of our country and our communities has to be adequate. That means, in my world, that we're not looking for a bottomless money pit, but we need to assess the individuals who have needs. There needs to be some kind of consideration given to transferring funds to places and people with different needs and different challenges.

I see this as a very trying.... Put aside the political; this is trying. We need to help families. In fact this week, maybe even today, at my daughter's own school in Barrie there have been two suicides in the past two weeks--two, by young people, and possibly even a death pact. I'll be waiting to hear of a third child from the same school. For me, my daughter attends that school, and we try to impact and influence the community just down the street.

We have to do better. We just have to get involved and do more, not just based upon economic truths and realities, but what is absolutely going to help encourage our children to resist the challenges and the crises that they are facing as they grow older.

It's monumental, in my mind. Adequacy becomes absolutely important. I don't believe it's an either/or thing. Parents who go out to work shouldn't be penalized for that. The single demographic in our own community is growing by leaps and bounds. There is a need to get out there, but you shouldn't penalize those who are staying at home and trying to raise their children, so there should be something more inclusive, something larger than what I see here.

Third, I'd like to consider the reliability. We need to begin to explore options--trustworthy places, whether in family or in non-profit, trustworthy places where we can begin to allocate funding that's going to make a difference. I would even suggest that maybe, on just rationally sound thinking, we would consider even some faith initiatives out there that have proven track records--somewhere we could begin to explore and see some really worthy people and places and non-profits that have supported the community over the years.

We need to create criteria and measuring sticks so that we can absolutely qualify that this is a good place or this is a good situation, and open up the doors to help at this grassroots level.

I believe that there are communities of faith out there, places and people, absolutely doing what you're looking for, but without any help of any kind. I applaud the government right now for the $1,200 subsidy and all of that help, but we need to get bigger. We need to get larger in order to facilitate strong family units. We've got to get bigger. You've got to get out of the box and think big, and I know you're attempting to do that.

Again, we're fairly new at this. All I'm saying is that at a very grassroots level, we're doing all we can to assist families in our community, to help them and to encourage them. We have all kinds of infrastructure within our community, within our organization, that the city is having a hard time providing for. There are different ways to go about--

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You have one minute, sir.

11:15 a.m.

Rev. Jay Davis

Oh, it was that fast, eh?

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

You wouldn't believe how fast it goes.

11:15 a.m.

Rev. Jay Davis

I'm a preacher, you know.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I'm sure you get more time on Sunday mornings.

11:15 a.m.

Rev. Jay Davis

Yes, I know. Not much, though--they're gone.

Well, the long and short of it is that even as parents, we need to be more proactive. I'd encourage this group of men and women who are making these decisions to really step beyond just the appearance of...I'll say government and politics and the agendas here, and really see the needs of these children. I know that's what you're here for. I understand that, but there is....

I've watched too many children, even in my own neighbourhood now, dying. We have to do something, and it has to be soon. It has to be impactful. It has to be powerful.

As a father and as somebody who's working at that grassroots level, I hope that we can find something that's really going to meet the need--really.

Thank you for your time. I appreciate the opportunity to come here and address this committee.

Thank you.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Davis, as well.

We're now going to move to our last presenter, our last witness, and that is Ms. Tennier.

May 8th, 2007 / 11:15 a.m.

Kate Tennier As an Individual

Bill C-303 is flawed policy and flawed politics.

By the way, is there just one Liberal here? That's it?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

The other ones are coming and going.

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Kate Tennier

So there's only one.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

They're always around us. We can't get away from them. They're either coming or going.

11:15 a.m.

As an Individual

Kate Tennier

I am Kate Tennier, from Toronto.

I will attempt one more time to explain to the Liberals why the country is against Bill C-303. The first thing Canadians do when discussing state-controlled child care is to muse about why and how the Liberals got themselves into this mess. They often wonder if you really know what it and this bill are all about. The evidence indicates you may not.

By supporting this bill you are supporting the NDP, which in its rush to impose its will on the Canadian people has become a handmaiden to the corporate bottom line, not the servant of its citizens--particularly its most needy. The NDP has developed its views based on the polemics of Canada's funded day care activists, who are inspired, in part, by the OECD directive to “offer free day care” as a way to get mothers out to work. That is explicitly laid out in this document I hold before you.

In March 2006, I spoke with a Toronto day care policy administrator who told me that the city will pay the full $18,000 day care fee for a mother to go out and earn $18,000. If a mother felt she could provide better child care herself and wanted some of that money redirected to her for that purpose, he said that wouldn't be allowed and that it would be better for her to get a job.

Olivia Chow's first comment at a Toronto child care all-candidates meeting in January 2006 was that universal day care would be good for the economy. I subsequently wrote about it in a Globe and Mail op-ed piece. Aside from the fact that Quebec's experience renders Ms. Chow's economic analysis quite wrong, we are not seriously contemplating supporting a bill that has economic growth, not the betterment of family life, as its purported goal.

I testified here almost two years ago, to the day, about the destructiveness of a national day care program and why Canadians did not want it. Convinced you were right and that the people were wrong, you pushed ahead. On November 19, 2005, rallies were held in 17 cities from coast to coast demanding that parents' child care choices rest with them, not the state. This was the tipping point that turned Canadians against your plans to bring in national day care.

It was a pity that so few Liberals took the time to listen to Canadians, especially with so many citizens saying this would be the first time ever they would not be voting Liberal, an experience I described, myself, in a December 2005 Toronto Star article.

Following a few of the many now former Liberals you ignored, there was a rally leader in Ontario who had previously led the charge against Wal-Mart muscling its way into her community, a grandmother who ran the breastfeeding support group in her maritime town, and a young Toronto mother who was resolute in her determination to be the primary caregiver while living on a family income of less than $35,000. She told me, “Kate, I was, and always have been, a Liberal, but not now. Liberals are no longer liberal and they simply do not speak for me.”

You ignored parents currently using day care centres who wanted a centre to meet their choice. You ignored Canadians--too many to count--who, accurately, do not equate early learning with day care centres.

My professional background is in education. I was a primary specialist teacher for many years. Not one shred of evidence supports the myth that children learn best in centres and preschools. Sweden found that out the hard way. Their education ministry issued a report in which they note that problems for young children actually increased with their move to early programmed learning.

You ignored a British Columbia parent, a card-carrying member of the Liberal Party, who stood in the voting booth for 15 minutes before making the agonizing decision to not vote for you. She simply couldn't allow her family to be treated like second-class citizens. You ignored the 90% of Canadians who rank day care centres as virtually their last choice. You ignored almost half the population whose children are in absolutely no form of outside care. You ignored the 85% of Canadians whose children are not even in day care centres. You ignored us all.

Finally, you ignored the truth. You ignored the research of Helen Ward, president of Kids First Parent Association of Canada, whose top-drawer analyses debunk every myth that national day care has been predicated on.

Why are you supporting the fantasy that the only thing preventing women from fulfilling their true destiny as stockbrokers, lawyers, and bank executives is the lack of day care? The truth--and you know it--is that the full impact of this program will be felt by women who will have the dubious pleasure of dropping their kids off at substandard care to take up their positions as low-paying service sector workers. Very few women are asking for the opportunity to release their inner Betty Friedans.

Finally, why are supporting the greatest NDP myth of all, the fantasy of the free lunch? The NDP are reluctant to give up their belief that obscenely expensive government programs don't cost us all dearly. Their response to families who don't want day care--also known as most of us--is that they don't have to use it. As Bev Smith brilliantly explained to a national CBC audience on March 26, the increased taxation required to fund these programs has the boomerang effect of forcing all parents into the market economy to cover its costs.

This is called the no-choice model. That women have gained control over their reproductive rights, only to lose decision-making power over who cares for their children, is an astounding irony that has been lost on very few of us.

The story goes that if you, the Liberals, get back into power, you won't be forced to fund this program, so there's no harm in passing this bill now. That's dangerous thinking, as it leaves the door open for some ill-informed Liberals to head down this no-win path once again.

Millions of Canadians have been galvanized by this issue, with support groups and networks springing up across the country as a direct response to your inability to listen to them. If you vote for this bill, the response will once again be swift and decisive. But if, on the other hand, you choose to support families, the engine that propels our country toward a bright future, in all their diversity—there's the word again—and in all the myriad ways they are currently and successfully raising their children, you'll be returning to your Liberal roots, and you will form the next government.

Notice the spike in Conservative support after the last budget, a budget that gave some help directly to parents. This could once again become the Liberal way.

Thank you.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Ms. Tennier.

Now we're going to move to our MPs to ask questions. Our first questioner will be Mr. Savage.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Lynne Yelich Conservative Blackstrap, SK

Mr. Chair, one of the guests last week complained that when they're on video, they don't know who's speaking and where they come from, so I was going to suggest....

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you very much. That's not a bad idea.

The first MP who will be asking questions, for those of you who are here via teleconference, will be Mr. Savage, with the Liberal Party.

We're going to have two five-minute rounds of questions right now.

Mr. Savage, it's your turn, sir.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses who have taken the time to come out and talk to us about this piece of legislation.

First of all, I'm a little puzzled. Is it Pastor Davis or Reverend Davis?

11:25 a.m.

Rev. Jay Davis

Correct.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Either or both?

I appreciate the fact that you came today.

By holding up a paper that talked about two suicides, are you suggesting that there's a connection with this bill?

11:25 a.m.

Rev. Jay Davis

I'm suggesting that there's an absolute need to do something that's going to change the lives of our children, yes. We're all for that: changing the direction and whatever it takes to make sure this doesn't happen. Where it does not speak to the bill implicitly, it does have a connection for me, as I'm going down the street, to see that children need absolute care in our community.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

There's no indication that the two suicides were connected to either a lack of child care or family child care.

11:25 a.m.

Rev. Jay Davis

For me, again, at a grassroots level, when I'm working with children and teens all the way through, there does appear to be a connection to the ability of families to care for their children.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Michael Savage Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS

Okay.

Mr. Thompson, I noted with interest.... You gave us a lot of material. Are you for or against Bill C-303?