Human Resources Committee on May 10th, 2007

[Shawn Tupper]

I hate to say it, but almost all of those estimates are correct. It really does depend on the type of space you're creating—if you're creating spaces for infants, which are more costly, versus for older kids—and it absolutely depends on the region and the market in which you're building your space.

Certainly we can say that in Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver you're going to see much higher costs for creating a space than you would see in a rural community or some smaller cities. I think, by and large, we would estimate that in the higher, more expensive markets you're looking at something, we've heard, as high as $40,000 to create a space, and in the lower-end markets, on average, you're looking at something in the range of $10,000 to $15,000.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

So $1,200 wouldn't be able to compensate for the $10,000 space or the $40,000 space.

[Shawn Tupper]

I think the cost of creating a space would be different from the cost to a parent for accessing that space.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We have Ms. Yelich and Mr. Lake.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Thank you.

Early learning and child care, of course, is important to us, but what isn't possible, I think, is for this bill to be modelled on the Canada Health Act and the way it is implemented.

So would you comment on how it could be modelled on the Canada Health Act, if that's even feasible with all the work you'd have to do with the provinces? You deal with the provinces a lot; how do you come to an agreement dealing with the provinces? Can the Canada Health Act even be a model for early learning and child care?

[Shawn Tupper]

Neither of us is an expert on the Canada Health Act, so it's difficult to comment on that act specifically. Certainly our experience in working with the provinces is one where we try to establish collaborative and partnership arrangements with the provinces in terms of pursuing our goals. Indeed, it would take some time. I know you've heard from other experts over the course of your hearings here who have made comments with respect to the Canada Health Act, and I would offer you their views ahead of mine.

[Lynne Yelich, Conservative, Blackstrap, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Is that all, Ms. Yelich? Okay. We can come back.

I have Mr. Lake and Ms. Dhalla.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I'll start with a jurisdictional question. On the development of child care spaces or child care programs under the Constitution, can you elaborate a little bit? Would that be more a federal responsibility or a provincial responsibility? Which level of politician should be held accountable for the production of child care spaces?

[Shawn Tupper]

I think clearly the production of support to programming for early learning and child care falls to the provinces and the territories.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay. So ultimately those politicians should be held accountable for, I guess, the performance on child care within their jurisdiction?

[Shawn Tupper]

Indeed.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay.

I was wondering if you could give us an overview, maybe the timeframe, of the negotiations that have gone into previous FPT arrangements on child care and compare those to the amount of consultation that was involved in this proposed legislation?

[Shawn Tupper]

I certainly can't compare it to this legislation. I should say that we have an ongoing relationship with the provinces and territories. I think that's part of what's really important in terms of what has been achieved so far. In terms of arriving at agreements, we have worked hard at an ongoing relationship and we've established working groups, so those dialogues and exchanges of information can occur in a relatively fluid way.

Ms. Graham was involved in some of those.

[Glennie Graham]

I was. I would just say that it's hours and hours and hours of discussions. In terms of the agreements that we've negotiated in the past, all jurisdictions look at every word of every agreement and are very much involved in crafting the words. So it takes as long as it takes, I guess, is one way to put it.

Often we're driven by timelines that are imposed on us. For example, if provinces want to ensure that we have secure money in a budget, then when we start and when we finish is determined by what the timeline is that we have to produce something. So it can take anywhere, I guess, from a year to a year and a half to negotiate agreements.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Okay.

We've heard a lot about the Quebec child care model, and I'm wondering if you can tell me about the conditions that the federal government has currently put on Quebec in terms of their own child care model. Obviously they receive money under the social transfer, and we've heard many witnesses say that the federal government has to have conditions on to have good quality child care.

What are the conditions currently that the federal government has placed on Quebec to come up with this child care model that they currently have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's the last question of this round, Mr. Lake.

I'll get you to answer that, and then we're going to move on to Ms. Dhalla and Mr. Brown.

[Glennie Graham]

In the 2000 ECD agreement and the 2003 multilateral agreements, Quebec very clearly stated that while it agreed with the principles of those agreements, they wanted to reserve sole responsibility for this particular area. That was respected by all jurisdictions, so in those agreements there was a footnote that indicated that they agreed. They reported to their own citizens, and they received their own share of funding, so it was a non-issue for the other jurisdictions. That is the arrangement that was in place.

In terms of the 2005 bilateral agreements, this was a similar situation, where we—“we” being the federal government—recognized that their system of child care was highly developed, and so there was an agreement that they would invest their share of funds in areas that would improve families and that they would report to their citizens. So that's basically how Quebec participated.

I would say at the social services table and at the officials level, they do participate with us as observers. They're happy to talk about their child care programs, so they participate in that multilateral environment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

I now have on the list Ms. Dhalla, Mr. Brown, Ms. Chow, and Mr. Lake.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I wanted to find something out from your experience, Mr. Tupper, as the director general for social policy development, and Ms. Graham, as the director for child and youth policy division. You probably have some of the statistics, having worked in this particular area for a long time. There have been many figures quoted to us, that if we invest in x number of dollars in early learning and child care, the economic return of those moneys is going to be significant. So for every dollar invested, we've heard everything ranging from $2 to $8 in terms of that investment contributing back into our economy and back into the future of our country.

What does your research show? If we invest, say, $1 into early learning and child care, what type of return are we going to be able to get?

[Shawn Tupper]

Wow, that's a good question.

[Glennie Graham]

I'll take a stab at it.

Some of the early research—You're quoting the Perry preschool project, which was in the United States, and that was for severely disadvantaged children. They did come up with a figure of $7 or $8 return for every dollar invested. Gord Cleveland did a cost-benefit analysis that led him to suggest that for every dollar you invest in child care, you get $2 into the economy.

We haven't done that sort of research. Obviously it's well accepted that good-quality early learning and child care programs are good for children, but one of the most important aspects is also good parenting. You can't look at programs in isolation; many factors contribute to child development.

[Ruby Dhalla, Liberal, Brampton—Springdale, ON]

I would agree with you, because many of the individuals I speak to supported the early learning and child care agreements that ensured there was quality, universality, accessibility and affordability.

My next question is in regard to determining the number of children aged zero to six who are presently in a child care facility in Canada. Do you have those numbers?

[Glennie Graham]

I do. Let me find them, because I don't have them off the top if my head.

Do you want to speak to that?