Human Resources Committee on Nov. 19th, 2009

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Mr. Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

How much time do I have, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

You have one minute and four seconds.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you very much.

I had a compliment for Mr. Savage's new-found financial zest, too, but maybe I'll save that for another time.

In my riding of Huron-Bruce, like many ridings across this country, I'm sure, females play a pretty strongly predominant role in the small business community. They have some tremendously successful businesses throughout the riding I represent. I wondered if you could comment a little more about how this came to be and the impact it's going to have on self-employed females, because I really believe this is going to really help the family and the family business.

[Frank Vermaeten]

I could certainly provide a few comments.

First of all, roughly one-third of those who are self-employed are females. There is certainly a large number of women out there who can potentially benefit from this, be it for the maternity and parental benefits or for the sickness and compassionate care.

If we turn to the claims made under the current system, what we see is that a large percentage of those claims are in fact made by women, so it gives you an indication of, potentially, the share of total claims that could come from women. We have 87% of parental claims, biological and adoptive, being made by women, and 59% of sickness claims and 74% of compassionate claims. You can see that women in general are very interested in these benefits.

If you turn to the self-employed, as I said, you have one million women, and about one-third of those are in the childbearing years. You certainly have a large number who could benefit from this. Our assumption is that it will be a very important benefit to allow people to raise families and to get that extra income security with respect to sickness and compassionate care.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

We are now into the second round of five minutes.

Madam Minna.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

I have two or three questions.

Very briefly, the first one is this. When did you start looking at this particular self-employment piece? This is just a quick question.

[Frank Vermaeten]

I think there was significant background work done in the early part of 2009 and the early summer of 2009. The bulk of the policy work, when we were given clear directions on what this was to look like, was done in the middle to latter part of the summer and the early part of the fall.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

I want to go back to what I was asking the minister earlier with respect to the $6,000 equating to 600 hours. At $10 an hour or that $6,000, if someone is earning a lot less, what that would be.... My question is that...yes, women are self-employed, but they also tend to earn less than the males. They are also the ones looking after family and so on so they would take longer and would need many more hours to qualify. Someone else could easily qualify within one or two months' work. Potentially, you could have the husband eligible to apply for parental leave and not the spouse, because she may not have her 600 hours.

I'm trying to understand how you are equating those two. Also, was there a proper gender analysis done on this particular piece of legislation?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I think you must have a threshold. The threshold that was chosen, the $6,000, was designed to be quite inclusive. Again, as the minister explained, we went from converting the 600 hours to trying to get a way to have an income threshold, the $6,000. So yes, some people will work more hours and some people will work fewer hours. While of course not everybody will be eligible, those who are earning a significant share of their income will be eligible and--

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Was there a proper gender analysis done on this piece of legislation?

[Frank Vermaeten]

In all our policies, we analyze the impacts on gender as well as other things. As I just pointed out--

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I'm sorry, but I have only five minutes compared to the others.

I asked, when we were discussing Bill C-50, for a copy of the gender analysis. I didn't get it.

May I ask, please, Madam Chair, for this one?

Could you send us a copy of the gender analysis that was done on this bill?

[Frank Vermaeten]

We can send you information on gender analysis. Absolutely.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you.

I now want to add something else. Here we have 600 hours, but because it's not equated to dollars, someone potentially could qualify for a lot fewer hours. Meanwhile, we have part-time workers. Most of the part-time workers, unlike those in this category, are actually women who cannot apply for parental leave. Most of the female part-time workers today do not qualify for parental leave. Even though they pay into EI, they never qualify for any of the benefits, so in essence they are going to be subsidizing others.

Has a proper analysis been done at EI on how all of these programs that are coming piecemeal will impact on women? Has your department done that? That's what frustrates me as a member here. Has that work been done? And that's not just on this piece; it comes piecemeal and I have to try to figure out how women are impacted. It's really frustrating. Has there been a piece of work done on how EI programs are impacting on women and every time there is a piece done...to make sure it is inclusive?

[Frank Vermaeten]

I think there's been a lot of analysis done on the impact of the employment insurance program on women. As I just indicated, I think the proof is in the statistics I just gave: that it's primarily women who are benefiting from the parental, the sickness, the compassionate—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Then why aren't we expanding it to part-time workers? The 600 hours does not lower the threshold—

[Frank Vermaeten]

Part-time workers are completely eligible for this, but we do have—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

But the hours they have to meet—

[Frank Vermaeten]

We do have a threshold for this, as we have a threshold in the regular system.

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

No. With all due respect, the threshold for this, if I may say so, is 600 hours. Yes, that's fair, except for when you get down to $6,000. That's a lot less for someone who earns $6,000 in a month. Before I was elected, I was earning about $12,000 to $15,000 a month, so I could have done it in a month. Meanwhile, another one of my colleagues who was working for $8 to $10 an hour could not.

So do you see the discrepancy here? When you equate it to a dollar, it's different.

[Frank Vermaeten]

As the minister pointed out, you can't use hours as the threshold—

[Maria Minna, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I understand, but all I'm saying—and I'm sorry to interrupt, but I'm running out of time—is that for this particular group, the self-employed, we're using a dollar figure, which makes it easier. For the part-timers, we're insisting only on the hourly, which makes it harder, and most of them cannot access it. I see women in my riding all the time who cannot access parental leave.

[Frank Vermaeten]

I guess the question here is that you have to set up a threshold. This individual has to earn $6,000 over the course of one year. So this really is targeted for people who are earning a significant share of their income from this program and then would make a claim. There has to be a threshold. There's a threshold for the current system. There's a threshold for this. In our assessment, it's a reasonable threshold, and it is roughly, in some ways, comparable to the current threshold for employees.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Raymonde Folco]

Before we go further on our rounds, I note we have only 15 minutes left in this meeting and we had been promised that we would receive the minister's notes before the end of this meeting.

I was hoping, sir, that when you went to the door you would come back with a handful of sheaves of paper, but I notice that your hands are empty. Can we still hope to get these papers in the next 15 minutes?