Human Resources Committee on April 26th, 2010

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

You know, in Quebec, in a one-industry town like Lebel-sur-Quévillon, and we heard witnesses on that subject here last week, as is often the case, the employees never wanted to stay out on strike and did not want it to continue, because they lose their jobs. First, they lose their incomes. Often, there are no other industries there to hire them. Their houses lose value, and often they even have to move. So in that situation, no one who had paid in to employment insurance for 25 years who is affected by a labour dispute and then a layoff wants to live in that situation. No one wants that. It is not true that we are going to create incentives.

Everyone gains self-worth and achievement through work. We have to believe in that too. Everyone has a family to feed. So I don't see where you are seeing incentives in those cases.

[John Farrell]

Well, I appreciate that you've brought up the situation at Lebel-sur-Quévillon, because I have a fair amount of information on and knowledge of that dispute. As part of my working career, as a matter of fact, since 1984 I've had responsibility for coordinating collective bargaining activities in the pulp and paper industry in eastern Canada, that is, from the Manitoba border through to Newfoundland.

So I have had an opportunity to follow labour disputes, including, since it started in 2005, the dispute at Lebel-sur-Quévillon. I also know that this mill has a long history of having several long-standing strikes and labour disputes. It's not a new thing. As a matter of fact, I would say that the employees, the local union in Quévillon, were somewhat militant.

I also happen to know that the pulp and paper industry in particular, as you probably know, particularly if you're from Quebec or Ontario or the Maritimes or, I guess, anywhere in Canada, is an industry that's suffering tremendously. Any industry that is making commodities for which the demand has been reduced by 25%, for example, is in big trouble.

In Quévillon, the fact is that the company did not lock out the employees. The company closed the operation because of the economic circumstances of that mill. They had issues associated with the high cost of fibre, diminishing markets, the high cost of energy, and the high cost of taxes in the community relative to the operation.

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

Yes, yes.

[John Farrell]

In addition to that, they had high labour costs for that mill, which--

[Josée Beaudin, Bloc, Saint-Lambert, QC]

I'm sorry, but I have very little time. We heard about this situation last week.

I have a mini-question. Do you think that enacting a bill like this would change the balance of power between employers and employees?

[John Farrell]

I think that adopting a bill like this will advantage the unions and disadvantage companies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Monsieur Godin.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have to tell you that I don't agree with you. You may have experience in terms of labour, but if you have checked, you will have noticed that I do too. I have never yet, in a collective bargaining situation, whether or not there is a strike, seen an employer announce in advance that it is ready to sign a contract, but is laying off 25% of the employees.

Ordinarily it is after the collective agreement is signed that people are not called back to work. Then it's a big surprise.

Do you not agree with me?

[John Farrell]

I'm not sure that I understand the question.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Well, I'll try it in English.

[John Farrell]

Okay.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

In the 35 collective agreements that I've negotiated myself, I have personally never seen, after a strike or a lockout, that when you're ready to have a contract signed, the employer tells the union, “We're signing this contract, so you vote on it, and after you come back, 25% will not come back to work”. Normally, it's after you come back that you get the big surprise that people are not getting called back.

[John Farrell]

So you're talking about the details of the collective bargaining issues that were associated with the Domtar strike? Is that what you're--

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

No, it's in general.

You're saying, Mr. Farrell, that the union is essentially going to have more bargaining power, because after the contract is signed, after a strike, people will be able to claim employment insurance. The only time where the employees can claim employment insurance is when the employer does not call them back to work.

These employees are employed by employers. So what is the answer? Send them to social assistance? We are telling families that they don't have the right to live and they should not look for work?

[John Farrell]

I just am having difficulty understanding the question. I'm sorry.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

That's why I want the Supreme Court to be bilingual.

[John Farrell]

Well, unfortunately, I'm not, but I highly respect people who are.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm saying that in a collective bargaining situation, it is not the usual thing that when the time comes to sign it, the employees are informed in advance that they will be losing their jobs. Do you want those people to become social assistance recipients?

Do you think they should go on welfare?

[John Farrell]

In the case of Lebel-sur-Quévillon, as I understand the situation, the number of employees operating in that mill was higher relative to other organizations. An issue in the collective bargaining was the number of employees who would be employed in that operation. Is that what you're referring to?

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Were they on strike?

[John Farrell]

The employees at Lebel-sur-Quévillon were laid off by the company.

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay, and normally they go on unemployment insurance.

[John Farrell]

Yes, and in fact—

[Yvon Godin, NDP, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We're not talking about them. We're talking about if you have a strike and the strike lasts 50 weeks. Then, after that, you get the collective agreement and the people return to work, and if the company doesn't bring everybody back, they'll have an extension to be able to qualify for EI because they're not on strike pay anymore. Strike pay is over.

[John Farrell]

That's right.