Human Resources Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2010

[Anne Crassweller, President, NADbank Inc., Marketing Research and Intelligence Association]

I'd like to interject and add that we do voluntary surveys that count on census data for accuracy to weigh and adjust the data.

We're very involved in how not to punish people for not participating, but if we flip it over and talk about how we encourage people to participate in this kind of research, and the value of it, I do know that the census people are very cognizant of this, and they do actually go out to homes and sit with people, and fill it out with them.

If we start to look at how we can explain the value of what people are giving to their country by participating in the long-form census, then we turn our conversation away from punitive actions related to not doing it to the value of why they should and would contribute.

I would agree with Councillor Davis, in that we don't seem to be having very many complaints, and I think this is due to consumers understanding the value of the long-form census to every aspect of their lives.

[Janet Davis]

My understanding as well is that Bill C-568 is before the House, which is proposing to deal with the punitive aspect, so I think the government could deal with that if it wished.

[Tony Martin, NDP, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Yes, the whole question of mandatory is critical here. In my own household and the household I grew up in, which was a very busy place, seven children, there was all kinds of mail coming in asking for a million different things. I know that in our house, if it was mandatory, we tended to get to it and do it because it was required that we do it.

Have you done any analysis of this issue of people responding because it's mandatory versus people responding because it's simply voluntary?

[Anne Crassweller]

In the work that we've done, it's really similar to the work that's done across the country by researchers. The data you get in the census is often quite different from the data you get in a voluntary survey. This is why people are talking about non-response bias. For example, if we look at age, younger people tend to be less likely to participate in voluntary surveys. Older people have more time, as you say, and they get to them.

If we look at the allophone community, we get lower participation in voluntary surveys by that community, which is one of the communities we are worried about missing when we miss the mandatory long-form census. Their participation is actually reversed. It's the younger allophones who are more likely to participate in these surveys than the older allophones.

The issue is that you don't know where that non-response bias is. It's there. You can't measure it and we know it varies across the sectors. By making it mandatory, you are encouraging everyone to participate, so that when you do the voluntary surveys, you then have a base upon which to understand how to adjust and weigh back to the known reality of the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Candice Bergen]

Thanks very much.

We'll now go to Mr. Komarnicki, please.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I've got a couple of questions for Ms. Davis, and then of course to Mr. Wycks a little later.

It was interesting that Ms. Davis indicated that she relied on the Ipsos-Reid poll, which I would understand is done on a voluntary basis. We rely on that and you rely on that. Mr. Darrell Bricker from Ipsos-Reid had this to say, and he's a professional:

As far as I can see, the idea of going to a voluntary census, or actually a voluntary sample, carries with it certain risks...The question is whether they are manageable risks. And based on my professional experience doing this research all over the world, I can tell you there are people who manage these risks all the time quite successfully.

Would you disagree with Mr. Bricker, Ms. Davis?

[Janet Davis]

I'm no statistician, but what I do know—

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Well, do you disagree with him and his statement?

[Janet Davis]

—but I don't agree. I think the non-response bias that we will see as a result of the voluntary nature of the national household survey will have significant impacts on the reliability of the data.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

So I take it that—

[Janet Davis]

And Statistics Canada, if I could continue—

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

But I just wanted to know whether you disagreed with him or not. Are you basically disagreeing?

[Janet Davis]

I said I do disagree.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Okay, so I'd like to move on to another area, because obviously we've established there's a difference of opinion. I'd like to probe you in some other areas.

If I may, you asked who might be opposed. I know that the B.C. Civil Liberties Association gave some evidence and said:

As a civil liberties organization, we are obviously concerned about the severity of the penalties that can be brought against citizens who do not fill out the census, and we might question the policy justification for some of the more unusual questions that have been included in the past.

We're all aware of some of the more unusual questions. For example, last week, how many hours did you spend doing unpaid housework, and how long did it take you to get to work, and how many bedrooms do you have? It's those types of questions I'm referring to. It seems that many were of the view that for not answering those questions, the penalty should not be very punitive. In fact, a motion of the previous committee studying this matter asked that the threat of jail be removed for non-compliance. A private member's bill, as you mentioned, was also introduced with the same point of view in mind.

Would you agree that for some of these more unusual questions, a threat of jail would be inappropriate?

[Janet Davis]

I think the sanctions are certainly something you can address, if that's the stumbling block.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

My question, Ms. Davis, was—

[Janet Davis]

So, yes, if it would mean that the government would proceed with the long-form mandatory census, this would—

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

My question, Ms. Davis, was whether you thought—

[Janet Davis]

If you would let me answer—

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Could you, please?

[Janet Davis]

If the government proceeded with the long-form census and these provisions were changed, then of course I would support it.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

So you're saying that the threat of jail should be taken away?

[Janet Davis]

I'm saying, yes, if the government proceeded with the long-form mandatory census.

I know that—

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Now, many expressed the view that if there were to be a fine, it should be a nominal fine, like $20, or perhaps no fine at all. What's your view about the size of the fine?

[Janet Davis]

I personally don't have a number that I would pick out of the air, but obviously the sanctions are symbolic, in any event, because they have not been exercised.

The City of Toronto has not taken a position on this particular matter, but personally, if the sanctions were reduced and the mandatory long-form census were to proceed, then, clearly, I think both municipalities and non-governmental agencies more broadly would support that.