Human Resources Committee on March 19th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I'd like to bring the meeting to order.

I have one matter of committee business. As everyone knows, the budget will be introduced on Thursday. That would be the day of our meeting for the committee. Normally on that day we would deal with the study regarding apprenticeships, and we would also deal with that on Tuesday of the following week. In general discussion with all members, I think there is a consensus that we will cancel Thursday's committee meeting and instead meet on Tuesday only, from 12 o'clock to 1 o'clock, to deal with the report.

Unless I see any objection, that is what we'll instruct the clerk to do.

Seeing no objection, that is what we will then do.

We will now move to our study today. We certainly welcome all of our witnesses who were able to make it through the snow. Tomorrow is spring, but today we're not so sure.

We have with us Maureen Haan and Elizabeth Smith from the Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work.

We have Johanne Curodeau, vice-president, board of directors, from Association pour l'intégration sociale d'Ottawa.

We have Deepak Soni from Corbrook.

We will hear from each of you. We'll start with Ms. Haan.

[Maureen Haan, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work]

Thank you very much for inviting CCRW to present to you today.

My name is Maureen Haan. I am the president and CEO of the Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work, and this is my colleague, Elizabeth Smith. She is the manager of the Ontario workplace inclusion program.

You have asked us here today because you've recognized that CCRW is the only national not-for-profit organization that supports people with disabilities in the achievement of their career goals and entry into the workforce. We believe in meaningful and equitable employment of persons with disabilities.

Carla came to CCRW after experiencing sudden vision loss that resulted in her inability to continue her work from her home-based company. She came to our Toronto program in 2010 after being referred to us by the CNIB with the following doubts: Who would hire me? What can I contribute as a blind person? How will I be able to make the commute to work?

Through her involvement with our Toronto program, Carla stated, “I learned how to manage disclosure and understand the accommodations I require. I experienced an increase in confidence and was able to focus on my skills and unique perspective.” Through her relationship with the CCRW Toronto job developer, Carla secured a challenging full-time internship position with Scotiabank that has led to full-time employment. In fact, Carla works in the diversity and inclusion team at Scotiabank, paving the way for others.

We tell you this tale of success to outline a few areas of CCRW's commitment. First is to engage private businesses to be champions of diversity issues while understanding that the disability component of diversity is not lost. Next is a collaboration within not-for-profits to benefit both clients that CCRW serves: job seekers with disabilities and employers. Job developers are crucial to ensuring employers obtain a labour force of appropriately skilled workers who have disabilities. Last, the training of employability or soft skills and accommodation for job seekers with disabilities is vital to success.

It is critical that the government continue to engage and empower organizations such as CCRW. To this end, we applaud the federal government in the following areas: continued provincial and federal funding for people with disabilities with an emphasis on employment; the recognition of the talent in this untapped labour force; the general growing recognition of the need to reform financial supports such as EI, ODSP, and CPPD; and the accepted labour market agreement for people with disabilities.

In all CCRW programs and services we have a dual client focus: employers and job seekers with disabilities. We recognize that both stakeholders must be involved to ensure the advancement of this labour force. This service structure allows us to have unique insights into the needs of both groups.

When working with the private sector, we engage employers in understanding how to hire and accommodate people with disabilities, which allows the private sector to step up to the plate and become champions. This is critical in ensuring the landscape changes, and barriers to hiring people with disabilities are removed.

To engage the private sector, it's imperative employers find the process of hiring people with disabilities to be easy, or at least not complicated. The impediments with complex wage subsidies, navigating multiple service providers, and understanding appropriate job accommodations dissuade business from recruiting qualified job seekers with disabilities. Cleaning up the system and appropriate education for employers is the key to this transformation.

Of course, the most important area to ensure continued successful relationships with the private sector is to get the right people into the right job. We have heard from employers that soft skills, or EQ, is the one aspect for which employers are unable to provide training, yet social exclusion often leaves people with disabilities without the understanding of workplace norms.

CCRW's approach to supporting job seekers is to ensure that being job ready includes addressing hygiene, workplace etiquette, disclosure of disability, and providing funding for work appropriate attire, which may include workboots, ties, and general clothing without holes. These small measures increase client confidence, which gets them in the door, at which point the right fit for the job can be appropriately measured and lead to employment.

At CCRW we also recognize that return to work goes beyond wage subsidy. We have internally changed viewing wage subsidy to training and accommodation for employers, but we feel it should be called that because it is not subsidized labour.

With this alteration in thinking, the expectation of on-the-job skills training will shift to be the responsibility of the employer, creating accountability and therefore buy-in from all parties. We strongly suggest a similar shift in thinking at the funding and policy levels of the government.

Time and time again employers have stated that a single point of entry would alleviate confusion created with multiple service providers. Not-for-profits are the best approach for this service delivery as our agencies are client based, not profit driven. CCRW, in fact, has been contacted by a U.S. collaborative of government, private, and not-for-profit to build a U.S.-Canada partnership around a national employment team, which is a national team of business consultants working directly with employers.

We have many ideas on how this can occur, citing progressive systems in both the U.S. and the U.K. We know that at first, employers are confused and apprehensive to hire people with disabilities, but when they experience success in hiring a qualified, motivated staff member, they are sold.

A single point of entry will help to alleviate the fear factor because there will be someone there, a corporate champion, to help work through the process. We recommend a subcommittee be formed to review the feasibility of establishing a single point of entry system based on information from the U.S. and the U.K. and modified to the uniqueness of Canadian needs.

To assist with accommodations, CCRW strongly suggests the establishment of a person with disabilities accommodation fund for small to medium-sized enterprises. Such a fund would allow relatively resource restrained small to medium-sized enterprises to hire new and qualified people with a disability, allowing them the financial flexibility needed to accommodate. The fund can be administered by HRSDC directly, or by contract to a not-for-profit organization working in the disability and employment sector.

To further engage the private sector, CCRW hosts business awards luncheons for businesses engaged in hiring people with disabilities through CCRW. In this model, businesses are recognized at an annual luncheon for best practices. Those in the private sector involved with the awards luncheons tell us that the recognition they receive is motivating, but the opportunity to meet and network with other like-minded employers is extremely valuable. The forum allows individuals to speak to each other on a peer-to-peer level while allowing the recognition of champions. From these luncheons, businesses are asked to sit on business advisory committees, providing a direct line of communication from local employers to the CCRW programs, which allows CCRW to respond quickly and accurately to current issues faced by businesses employing workers with disabilities.

While fundraising, sponsorship, donations, and funding partnerships are vital, many issues arise when funding is fragmented, and not-for-profits are being encouraged to rely on the private sector for funding. This dynamic becomes much more complicated when the private sector is a client.

In order to encourage a circle of support, trust needs to be developed between businesses and agencies serving this sector. Asking for funding in early days of developing this type of partnership does not encourage trust. Therefore, government funding is essential to not-for-profits to ensure the continued engagement of the private sector in the area of employment and disability.

A business case for hiring people with disabilities needs to be created by government and stakeholders, and advertised. As we know from the report, workers with disabilities are known to have a low turnover rate, and the cost of accommodation is far less than the cost of replacing a worker. We need to educate the private sector about this along with other important realities on hiring people with disabilities through large-scale advertising, employer engagement through working groups, peer-to-peer education, and the recognition of champions. The focus of information needs to be on the disability sector, which cannot be lost in the overarching diversity issues.

My closing comment is around collaboration within the not-for-profit sector. The current structure of competition of funding for not-for-profits needs to cease. Although this process works well for the private industry, pitting not-for-profits against each other creates a disservice to both of our clients: job seekers with disabilities and employers. To expect organizations in competition to then partner and work together becomes complicated. There is no base of trust.

Not-for-profits are worried about sharing their best practices in fear of losing contracts and other funding sources, and clients are unable to access all services available due to project funding constraints. A collaborative approach is recommended for government funding contracts with proven support from community agencies.

We all agree that partnerships work and are of the utmost importance to break down barriers to employment of people with disabilities. Therefore, with this vision, partnerships need to be encouraged as early as possible and entwined in the fabric of expectations, from service delivery to funding contracts.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for your presentation, observations, suggestions, and vision for going forward. We appreciate that very much.

We'll now hear from Mr. Soni. Go ahead.

[Deepak Soni, Executive Director, Corbrook]

Good morning, everybody. My name is Deepak Soni. I'm the executive director of Corbrook. We're a Toronto-based agency funded by the Province of Ontario.

Corbrook has been supporting people with physical and developmental disabilities to achieve independence, self-reliance, and become full participating members of our society for over 62 years. Our vision is simple: to awaken abilities.

Corbrook prides itself as a centre of learning. We offer many programs and services to people with disabilities in order to empower them with choices and opportunities. We have been assisting people in finding and maintaining jobs for over 25 years. We offer a number of programs that are geared toward employment, including employment counselling and placement, transition to work, literacy, and our new partnership with Centennial College in food packaging and processing.

I'd like to highlight three main points today that identify some of the challenges and successes on how to enhance the employment of people with disabilities and the role the federal government can play in supporting this role.

First of all, one of the biggest challenges we face, and I think Maureen mentioned it, is the restrictive funding model. Corbrook provides a successful transition-to-work program that offers people the necessary skills to find employment. The program focuses on teaching not only the technical skills related to the job, but some of the softer skills, such as issues relating to hygiene, dressing, attendance, sexuality, etc., that are essential in maintaining a job. Through this program, we also help to find employment and provide people with job coaching and training skills directly on the job.

However, given the funding that comes from the Province of Ontario through the Ministry of Community and Social Services, the program is only restricted to people who have a developmental disability. This restrictive nature of funding means that many other people with other disabilities are not offered the program unless they pay for it on their own. Every year we turn away hundreds of people. Last fiscal year it was 300 people with mental health issues, acquired disabilities, and physical disabilities that did not qualify for the program.

Corbrook also provides a literacy and learning program that focuses on building literacy in people who have never had the opportunity of a formal education. This program stresses on building math, English, and life skills, such as money management. Participants of this program also attend our transition-to-work program and are extremely successful when it comes to finding and maintaining employment. However, this program is also offered with the same restrictive funding model as our transition-to-work program and is only open to people with development disabilities.

I look to the federal government and HRSDC to support agencies like Corbrook and broaden our funding base so that we are able to support more people in finding employment.

I will identify a couple of successes and some unique partnerships that we have that really have achieved strong results.

The first one is our partnership with Centennial College. Research has shown that a person with a disability is successful in securing and maintaining employment if they not only have the training or education behind them, but the work experience to go along with it. Many people with disabilities, unfortunately, do not have this opportunity. Corbrook in collaboration with Centennial College in Toronto have created a certificate program in food packaging and processing that addresses this issue. People with disabilities get the opportunity to attend a community college. The best part is that the program is non-segregated. They learn the theory related to food management and preparation at the college, while getting the practical experience related to food handling and packaging in the Corbrook state-of-the-art clean room. In the second semester, Corbrook helps people find co-op placements in the food and hospitality sector. On completion of the program, students are awarded a certificate in food processing and packaging.

Students pay $3,000 annually to attend the program. The fees are shared between Corbrook and Centennial and they barely meet the expenses of the program, but it is something that our boards have decided collaboratively to work on.

The program has the capacity for 15 students every year. The needs are so great that in our first year of offering it, there were 10 students on the wait list and 25 who could not afford the program as they did not have any financial means to pay for it. Unfortunately, the program doesn't quality for provincial financial assistance. Of the 15 students enrolled this year, 13 have ended up with employment with their co-op employers. This is an example of a unique program that, unfortunately, has no funding from any level of government, yet is so effective in breaking down barriers to employment.

Funding for programs such as this would allow even more people to become successful in finding employment, as right now it's limited to those who can afford to pay for it. Many people with disabilities often do not have the means to pay for such programs.

Our second partnership that I'd like to highlight is at Starwood Hotels. Corbrook, through an RFP process, was awarded a small amount of provincial money to develop an innovative and modern employer awareness tool. This tool, which is a pilot, will provide real-life scenarios, ideas, and strategies for HR managers and hiring managers who are engaged in employing and working with people with disabilities.

What's unique about this approach is that it gets away from the generic sensitivity training offered in a class-like environment, which can be costly for a lot of employers. Instead, it will be devised to be accessed by the click of an icon on a manager's desktop.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Could you slow down a bit? The interpreters are having a bit of a time keeping up with you. If you could do that, we'd appreciate it.

[Deepak Soni]

Sure.

We will be partnering with Starwood—the owners of the Westins and Sheratons—in Toronto to run this pilot. If it's successful, this is something that will be of great benefit to all employers.

Funding from the federal government for initiatives such as this are necessary in order to reduce the existing barriers to people with disabilities even being considered for an interview, let alone a position. If additional funding were made available through the federal government, the money would be used to make this training even more easy to access for employers by building an app for a mobile device, etc., and accessible to employers across Canada by simply downloading the app or programming directly from the Service Canada website.

Awareness of employers is essential in breaking down barriers to employment. Investment by the federal government to work with agencies like Corbrook and my partners around the table to develop modern innovative tools such as this should be considered as opposed to the traditional models we have, which are often expensive in the long run, too generic in their approach, and not effective enough in changing the attitudes of employers.

Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to talk to you more about Corbrook and what we are doing to help people build opportunities for employment. I look forward to working with all of you in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you.

I do hear the word “partnership” coming up quite a bit, a unique partnership certainly in your case. With the development of modern innovative tools, it's all very important, for sure.

We'll now move to Ms. Curodeau.

[Johanne Curodeau, Vice-President, Board of directors, Association pour l'intégration sociale d'Ottawa]

Ladies and gentlemen, members of Parliament, good morning.

It is with great pleasure that our organization, the Association pour l'intégration sociale d'Ottawa, or AISO, has agreed to join the ranks of this committee as a witness.

As a francophone agency working with people with intellectual disabilities and their families, we are at the forefront of observing the multiple opportunities and skills available to them. I represent the association today as vice-president of the board of directors, but I am, first and foremost, a parent of an adult with an intellectual disability: my son, Louis-Philippe, who is a labour market success story.

I am also accompanied by Ms. Gisèle Parisien, who is a support supervisor at AISO.

To provide you with some background, the AISO was founded in 1991 and offers diversified services, including employment services, to francophones with intellectual disabilities. We are designated under the French Services Act of Ontario, and our main funding comes from the Ministry of Community and Social Services of Ontario. Our organization is also a provincial member of Community Living Ontario, or CLO, and works closely with the CACL, the Canadian Association for Community Living. Lastly, we are the founding members of another organization that offered employment services. These services were integrated into our organization in April 2011.

There are 55 people who are actively supported, including 22 who are employed and 14 who are interns or volunteers. Of the 22 people who are employed or interns, only 7 work more than 20 hours a week, and only 2 of them earn a little more than minimum wage. That said, the vast majority of them would like to work more than 20 hours a week for an appropriate contribution, because they are ready, eager and able. Close to 58% of people we support are, unfortunately, not considered competitive on the labour market, a proportion of 32 out of 55.

As my colleagues said, the working population of people with intellectual disabilities is underrepresented on the labour market, whereas this population can be a driving force. In this context, in November 2012, we attended the unveiling of the National Strategy for Employment of the Canadian Association for Community Living, here in Ottawa. According to the latest data produced by the CACL, there are approximately 500,000 people who would be a viable human solution, and thus contribute to their personal development on their own and that of a great country, and their communities and localities. To do this, they need the appropriate support, or need to be the beneficiaries of some investment from the community, combined with the leadership of potential employers. Unfortunately, we still see that several of these people, the majority of them even, continue to be excluded, live a segregated life, and are isolated.

When we talk about supporting or assisting a person with a view to including him or her into the labour market, our organization, like several others in the country, begins by developing an evaluation and initial assessment of their competencies and skills, including helping them prepare and seek employment. This approach also includes assisting with their integration, supporting them in the workplace, as well as mentoring the employer, as my colleagues mentioned. Since people with intellectual disabilities are also often exposed to more precarious and less desirable employment, it is key that our organization remain present in order to offer support and assistance based on the needs of the person and their work environment.

As several barriers are still very present, there are solutions that would allow people with intellectual disabilities to increase their civic and economic contributions, by providing support to employers in particular.

Research indicates that one of the main reasons employers do not hire people with intellectual disabilities lies in the fact that they know little about these people, do not understand their needs, and do not know how to interact with them. Raising awareness through promotion of campaigns at the national level would certainly address this form of prejudice.

Moreover, we need to facilitate the transition between high school and the labour market. A vast majority of people with intellectual disabilities find themselves with virtually nothing at the end of high school. They do not have access to any services and seldom have, if at all, the opportunity to attend postsecondary schools or are on long waiting lists to obtain resources that can support them. Therefore, they are shut out when they could actively participate and contribute to the economic development and advancement of our communities.

We also have to ensure education and postsecondary inclusion. Experience shows that when there is inclusion of postsecondary education as well as programs tailored to their needs, 80% get and maintain employment in their fields of study. Again, it is important that this access be provided in the language of their choice.

Let's use Ottawa as an example. Despite the large francophone community of people with intellectual disabilities, only a handful of them have access to postsecondary education in French because no such program exists currently. We, along with families from the community and various partners, are putting our efforts into mitigating the situation leading to the emergence of a postsecondary program in French that would enable them to acquire competencies and develop their skills to be able to obtain remunerated employment through inclusion. In addition to contributing to the rise and prosperity of our communities, they would be able to improve their situation and quality of life, as well as reach levels of acceptable and suitable annual income. As it is, only those persons who are proficient in English can benefit from postsecondary education but they must go to English schools.

We also need to develop a network of employers. It is essential to educate communities and employers about the labour opportunities that people with intellectual disabilities can offer. Communications strategies must be implemented in communities so that we can establish a greater number of partnerships, while educating associations and occupational groups through targeted messaging with a goal of full employment for this important group of our population. We must build on success stories. There are so many. Yet, they remain unknown when they should be promoted.

I am now going to talk to you as a parent. I cannot overlook the success story of my son Louis-Philippe who, thanks to services offered by agencies like the AISO and the support from its counsellors, first held a part-time, then a full-time job. Versatile, he likes to learn and has developed various skills at major retailers, mainly: Rona, Home Depot and Loblaws. Now working at Canadian Tire for almost six years, he has a full-time position as a front-store clerk. As a handyman, he helps his colleagues from various departments. He assembles bicycles, installs display units, gets carts in the parking lot and assists clients by carrying their purchases to their vehicles. Louis-Philippe is always ready to serve with a smile—more so at work than at home, I must confess.

In addition to being a major asset for any employer, people with intellectual disabilities are loyal employees: they are punctual and are often a source of inspiration for their environment and, according to their supervisors, their co-workers.

In addition, we need to develop entrepreneurship and support the emergence of small businesses. The development of entrepreneurship from a unique idea represents a promising solution for people with intellectual disabilities. They should have access to any program that supports entrepreneurship like any other citizen, but based on an approach tailored to their needs, and based on expected results. Furthermore, there are many social enterprises that want to be the innovative and creative answer to new labour market niches. In our opinion, this is one of the key components that must be prioritized in a search of prospects for full inclusion in the workforce.

Lastly, we need to modernize the systems. To ensure the prospect of full employment and professional inclusion of people with intellectual disabilities, we must all re-evaluate our ways of doing things; refine our vision to include people with intellectual disabilities like anyone else, aiming for their active participation in the labour market, not to mention the important economic contribution they could make. We should collectively reconsider our strategies and our approach so that we become innovative in our practices.

In addition to the solutions put forward that could become, without a doubt, elements of action, as well as sustainable and favourable social changes, we must stay the course in educating the general public, with a focus on educational and labour communities. We also need to work closely with existing networks in order to re-examine our service models and approaches geared at full and complete inclusion of people with intellectual disabilities in the work force. We should ask ourselves on an ongoing basis how we can include, both socially and economically, people with intellectual disabilities who are ready, willing and able. We should help them succeed and support them in achieving their goals.

I thank you for your time. I'm available to answer your questions in either French or English.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you very much, Ms. Curodeau.

We certainly appreciate that you have a personal interest. As a parent you're obviously very proud of your son. We're dealing with a group of individuals who are indeed highly motivated and ready, eager, and able, to work and contribute with the appropriate supports. We appreciate hearing from you. We have heard from others that the transitioning from high school to the labour force is very important and post-secondary education as well. We appreciate what you've had to say.

We'll now move to Madame Perreault for five minutes of questions and answers.

[Manon Perreault, NDP, Montcalm, QC]

Good morning. Thank you for coming here. Your presentations were really very interesting.

I would like to ask Ms. Haan a question.

Earlier, you spoke about the competition that exists between organizations to secure funding. This has been going on for years and years. If I base myself on how things work in Montcalm, I would say that this really is a very huge problem.

I know that you did refer to this, but I would like to know one thing. Perhaps we need to mitigate this competition and adopt, at one point, approaches that are healthier and more collaborative between the organizations. Think, for example, about the disability component of the Social Development Partnerships Program. I was recently told that the model had been changed, and that there were new requirements now and that it was more competitive.

Right now, what are the biggest barriers for securing funding?

[Maureen Haan]

That's a very good question.

There are lots of obstacles. I think all not-for-profits who are sitting in front of you will attest to the obstacles of funding and there are many.

The first and largest we feel is the competition for funding among not-for-profits. We are client-based, but we are expected to be cutthroats and undercut our competitors to get a contract. then go back and work within the community in partnership with the people who we've just undercut. I don't believe not-for-profits are set up in that way. I think you should make it a collaboration of not-for-profits in the very beginning and have that set forward from the very start with the call for proposals or the request for funding so that it's a collaborative approach among all not-for-profits and the government.

I also think competition arises with the current funding structure so that clients can't access services from CCRW and from another organization. They don't have the freedom to flow between programs and projects. It's very limiting for the clients at the end of the day as well.

[Elizabeth Smith, Manager, Ontario Workplace Inclusion Program, Canadian Council on Rehabilitation and Work]

If I may, the only thing I would add is that not only is it limiting for the client, but it is also limiting for employers. We hear this from employers who are navigating the multiple service providers and job developers who can only speak for the specific clients that they have available. A lot of times the failed or the employment situations that don't work out is because there's a hustle to make the numbers. Instead of being able to draw upon all of the clients and eligible people with disabilities in the community, there can be clients who are put into employment situations that aren't suited to their goals and needs. If we are able to develop more consultation and collaboration at the outset, as Maureen was saying, that would better serve both our people with disabilities and our employers.

[Manon Perreault, NDP, Montcalm, QC]

I recently spoke to some people in my riding. They said more or less what we have been hearing here, since we began our study. I am referring to wage subsidies.

From what I can gather, we have to stop thinking about wage subsidies and instead look to creating some long-term support. This is all well and good, but in your opinion, how can such a transition be accomplished in practical terms?

[Elizabeth Smith]

It's something that we're implementing right now in our programs. As you know, with the wage subsidy there are a lot of misconceptions in the employment community. The employers view wage subsidy as subsidized labour. That therefore devalues the contribution of qualified persons with disabilities in the workforce.

With the understanding that many persons with disabilities do face social exclusion, when they enter an employment situation, they may require additional support in becoming fully trained and acclimatized, whether that be with regard to familiarization with accommodations, or for the employer also by developing strategies around accommodation.

What we are doing with employers is we are framing it as a training subsidy that perhaps the person might require more focus in that training period, and for that additional contribution of time the wages are then subsidized for that training period. In return, they would have support from us, as an organization, to help implement those strategies, to ensure accommodations are in place and to troubleshoot any questions that may arise, but that period of time is designed so that both the client and the employer can have success.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

Thank you, Madame Perreault. Your time is up.

We'll move to Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chairman. Especially thank you to the witnesses for being here today. Your testimony is very broad and I'm trying to narrow in on a couple of things I'd like to talk about.

First of all, when you talk about a model of government funding to not-for-profits in a collaborative fashion, in an ideal world that would be perfect. I agree. But frankly, I think the need for results-driven accountability, value for dollars, sometimes falls out of that decision.

As a legislator having to make decisions on how the government spends money, please tell me how we can assure ourselves that we're getting all those elements when we allow a single source?

[Maureen Haan]

I'd love to answer that.

We only have suggestions, obviously, but we know that at CCRW, for example, an average client at CCRW who is in our Toronto area, who is on ODSP, receives around $1,075 a month in support. At CCRW, to get that one client back to work, it cost us $761.66 in 2012, so that is a good return on investment. That takes people off of disability quite easily.

If we frame how we understand going back to work in a business case and put not-for-profits at the forefront of getting that business case together, and encourage a working environment right from the beginning before the funding is identified, before the call for proposal goes out, to have stakeholder meetings of organizations like CCRW, like my colleagues sitting at the table, then we can say that maybe we should go down this road or maybe that is an idea for this funding as opposed to only seeing it backwards.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Are for-profit agencies providing these services in your area?

[Maureen Haan]

They are.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

What's your opinion of their services?

[Maureen Haan]

Go ahead, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Smith]

In one of the offices I manage in my program we're sharing a building with a for-profit that does recruitment and placement. My experience in working with employers in that field is that, just like any other employer, they don't have the expertise and awareness to understand the specific needs of a person with a disability.

I want to echo our colleagues here today. The focus was on intellectual disabilities but we're cross-disability. We hear no matter what the disability is that employers need to have greater understanding of what the needs are and what it means to have any type of disability, whether it be mental health, intellectual, or episodic, that type of knowledge.

You're speaking about return on investment and results-based funding, and we absolutely understand that need for accountability when funding is provided. There are some ideas out there of other ways we can measure such as looking at the long term, employment retention, how clients excel in the workforce. The danger with a sole focus on the employment outcomes, which often are very aggressive, is that clients who require greater attention can be left behind.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I want to move on because I've got a lot of questions, but very limited time.

Mr. Soni, I wanted to get into the community college thing, but I'm not going to go there because I don't have enough time. My office and I have done quite a bit of research lately on the way the federal government flows dollars to organizations through labour market agreements. Many of the national organizations would like to see some reform in this area by the federal government.

Are you aware of that? If you are, can you comment on some of the things you think the federal government may want to do to formulate labour market agreements for people with disabilities?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

We'll conclude with that response.

Go ahead, Mr. Soni.

[Deepak Soni]

We're not a national organization, we're provincial. Most of our money comes through MCSS in Ontario. We have been part of certain agreements recently. One was called a person-directed planning initiative that came through MCSS and is tied to the LMA dollars. I don't have a lot of experience at the national level, but I often find we don't have a lot of say in how the money is spent when it flows through the province and then comes into organizations like ours.

Given the experience we have, having a round table discussion to be able to allocate those dollars more effectively would be a lot more efficient, I think.