Human Resources Committee on May 21st, 2013

[Dan Davidson]

Real quickly on the fee, I'm not going to say that I mind the fee. I don't know exactly what the intent is or if it's to make the business person think twice about doing the LMO because of the cost.

Sometimes here's how I think of it. Mine is a bigger business, but I think of the little guy who does struggle a bit to make ends meet and has no labour in his restaurant, or the small hotel that doesn't have much in. They're taxpayers. They pay taxes to our government. They're losing a bit of that government support by having that fee put on to a small business that sometimes is already struggling as it is.

The big corporations, yes, maybe they can write the cheques a little easier for all these LMOs, but truly, if the small businesses are utilizing the LMOs and they're getting hurt by it, I'm not sure. I'm kind of on the fence when it comes to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

All right.

We'll move to Monsieur Lapointe.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Merci.

I will speak French. Does everyone have a translation device that works?

Ça va bien, Monsieur Davidson? Okay.

A balance must be found. On the one hand, there is an urgent need for human resources in the service enterprises. We want to ensure that a restaurant or an inn can provide its services and meet its business targets this year. On the other hand, we don't want programs—and this is what we fear—that encourage businesses to resort to low-cost labour everywhere in the country. In that sense, we are not certain that there is a balance in every case.

You said, Ms. Reynolds, that in several regions, some of the human resources issues were long-term problems. In other words, the problem will still be there in 5, 10 or 15 years. That is a good example.

Given those conditions, should we not ensure that immigration be normalized, and that workers be able to become Canadian citizens and enjoy the same rights and advantages as all of us around this table?

[Joyce Reynolds]

Absolutely. One of the criticisms of the ALMO, accelerated labour market opinion, process was that there were managers who were being fast-tracked for the ALMO process. The misunderstanding there was about what was happening in those restaurants. Again, this was in remote communities where nobody was applying for jobs. There was nobody to train for the manager jobs, so some of our members were bringing in temporary foreign workers.

If those workers were able to demonstrate potential and wanted to move up in the organization, they could be promoted to manager and be given more responsibility and higher pay, but then they had to go back and reapply for an LMO, so they would apply through the ALMO process. Once they become a manager, they could be eligible to stay, through the provincial nominee program.

Our members are interested in helping those people stay in Canada if that's their desire.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Perfect. So, there could be improvements in that regard. Thank you.

Mr. Davidson, we understand your situation very well. You have an urgent need for human resources. However, you heard Mr. Blandford say that in certain cases, in certain specialized trades, some programs are poorly administered. This encourages people who should be well paid, such as pilots, to stay home. Consequently, an unemployed airplane pilot will not invite his family of four children to your restaurant. So there are direct repercussions on Canada's real economy.

We think that there should be an independent examination to find that balance, that is to say to ensure that we can meet emergencies such as the one in your field, without provoking scenarios that are absolutely nefarious for all of the members of a given trade and thus for the Canadian economy, as Mr. Blandford mentioned.

Would you be comfortable with the idea of an independent study to allow us to find a balance in that situation?

[Dan Davidson]

Definitely. When I'm talking, it's with regard to food service and hospitality, which is my experience. I'm hearing Craig's situation, too, with the pilots. I totally feel for that.

I don't feel we want Canadians sitting at home while foreign workers are taking jobs. I'm totally on board with that, 100%. We do not want Canadians sitting at home. A Canadian who wants to work for me, who is prepared to come and work for me, is going to work for me.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

There is something else that concerns me. If this continues to be very poorly administered, there could some day be a backlash, a crisis of confidence among Canadians with regard to these programs. At that point, people who really need those programs and want to do things properly will be affected by that crisis of confidence. That is what we are going to see if things are not done with greater care than what we have seen with the banks, the pilots, etc.

I would like to hear your reaction to another issue, and that is the need for basic skills. Twenty per cent of our fellow citizens have enormous difficulties with basic skills, that is to say with literacy, which implies that they have trouble reading. Most often, these are people who are no longer a part of the system, who no longer receive unemployment insurance benefits, and so on. There are certain legislative provisions that ensure that programs, employment insurance surpluses, for instance, will be used to help these people to acquire these skills. Often, these programs and measures have wound up helping the service industry. Thanks to these measures, someone who was ready and willing to work, but did not know how to write or count, and could not even use a cash register, was finally given access to the labour market.

In a broader perspective, would it not be important to also help those people?

[Kellie Leitch, Conservative, Simcoe—Grey, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I would just like to ask about the relevance of this conversation with respect to EI and skills training when we're talking about temporary foreign workers and specifically the clauses relating to the budget.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

I think where the questioner is going is that if you'd done certain things, including literacy training and skills upgrading, you would have more Canadians available for jobs.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Perhaps you could conclude. Your time is up, so you'll need a quick response.

[François Lapointe, NDP, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

In exactly the sense expressed by the chair, would you agree that it's an effort that we should collectively do?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

[Inaudible—Editor]...opinion if you want to or not.

[Dan Davidson]

I think that's something we do right now. I believe there is a lot of training available for people who are unskilled or who, as you said, are missing certain aspects to take them to that next level. I believe that stuff is offered.

If the question is directed at me, then my experience, and my answer, is with regard to Saskatchewan. Once again, we can train people. We can train them in Winnipeg. We can train them in Ottawa. They're not going to come to Moosomin, Grenfell, Broadview, or anywhere like that. We don't know how we can benefit from that in Moosomin. We have a 3.7% unemployment rate, and that includes everybody, no matter how well they read.

I do agree, though, that in Canada in general, yes, it definitely would be of benefit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Komarnicki]

Thank you for that.

We'll now move to Mr. Daniel.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, folks, and thank you for endorsing the temporary foreign worker program. It seems as though it's very useful for growing our economy, etc.

Captain Blandford, could you help us better understand what wet leasing is?

[Capt Craig Blandford]

Wet leasing by definition is when an airline gets airplanes and pilots from a second party.

Let's say the government asks Air Canada to transport, on short notice, hundreds of troops from one place in Canada to somewhere else. If Air Canada says that their airplanes are in maintenance and they don't have the airplanes, but they'll get some and they'll do the job, Air Canada will wet lease. They will get airplanes and pilots from somewhere else, and then use the Air Canada system to support that flying.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Does that involve your going through the temporary foreign worker program for wet leasing?

[Capt Craig Blandford]

No, that currently is one of the loopholes in the temporary foreign worker program. If you want to get pilots to fly your airplanes you'll have to go through an LMO or go through the temporary foreign worker program to rationalize hiring pilots, but if you want to wet lease and get airplanes and pilots from another airline, then you can do that without using the temporary foreign worker program. That is why we've drawn attention to the wet leasing aspect of this as well.

We just submitted a report to Transport Canada with our opinions on how that should be used in conjunction with the program you're reviewing, but you should be sensitive to the fact that if you fix this program or make adjustments, you should also be aware of the loophole that exists in the aviation industry for wet leasing, which I do believe is being addressed by Transport Canada in an appropriate venue.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Since you've really talked about a huge excess of Canadian pilots, can you give me some idea of how many temporary working pilots you're actually getting in, for example, in Air Canada?

[Capt Craig Blandford]

We don't have any. As I said, Air Canada doesn't use them for two reasons: Air Canada is a proud supporter of the Canadian economy and the industry, and the pilots association has collective agreements with the company that say that the company will hire Canadian pilots, and we try to enforce that.

I'm almost a tiny bit embarrassed about the magnitude of the problem. You're dealing with 350,000 or 400,000 temporary foreign workers in this country and the total number of pilots you have in the country is about 6,000 to 7,000, so the perspective and the magnitude are a little different. However, I am concerned about our industry.

In our industry, when you have 200 pilots out of work, that's significant for the economy and it's significant for those people who are out of work. Sunwing, for example, might hire and employ 130, 140, 150 regular permanent Canadian pilots, but in their peak season they might employ 200 or more foreign pilots on top of that when we have 150 or 200 suitable pilots who are out of work.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

That's a realistic number of pilots who are unavailable?

[Capt Craig Blandford]

Yes.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

I was actually talking just last week to the owner of an airline that works out of Lethbridge who can't even get anybody to apply to be a pilot. Can you help me balance that with why you have all these people sitting around and nobody is applying for these jobs?

[Capt Craig Blandford]

Again, I would have to understand the level of operation, the type of airplane. Is it a small operation? Is it a float operation or that kind of thing?