Human Resources Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2018

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you very much.

There was a mention by my colleagues on the other side about the provinces and municipalities. Indeed, folks in my riding likely would have the same question around how this impacts them if it's only federal or provincial or municipal. Could you expand on this a little bit more? Within the federal jurisdiction, including the federal government and federally regulated industries, how do you envision this bill enabling you to work through the provincial and territorial and municipal governments? How do you see this taking on a leadership role?

[Carla Qualtrough]

We know that in some ways the federal jurisdiction is limited in terms of the businesses. Certainly the vast majority of small and medium-sized enterprises are within provincial jurisdiction. We know that provinces are watching this process very carefully. I've heard directly from provinces that they're waiting to see how we do this and then they'll head down similar paths themselves.

In an ideal world, we would have incredible consistency across jurisdictions so that the experience of a Canadian with a disability is seamless. The best example is credit unions and banks. Credit unions are provincial and banks are federal, but in terms of the day-to-day life experience of someone, they don't walk into a credit union and go, “Oh, I get this. It's section 92 of the Constitution. There'll be a different standard in the bank next door.”

That's not how we should operate as governments. I think this gives us an incredible leadership opportunity to bring people to the table to ensure that consistency. I also know that the CASDO standards they developed could be model standards that could be quickly adopted through provinces. A number of opportunities here enable us, through our leadership, through CASDO, to really impact provincial jurisdiction—respectfully, and respecting the Constitution.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

Can you talk about how this legislation fits in with our commitment to the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities and the new role of CHRC?

[Carla Qualtrough]

Yes. It's a very exciting win, I would say, for the disability community. Certainly the international community has been calling for some time for Canada to establish a monitoring body for the UNCRPD. This law does that. This law sets the Canadian Human Rights Commission as the monitoring body for Canada's implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. That is quite significant, which the disability community would tell you, so I think internationally it will be well received.

In addition, the UNCRPD speaks everywhere through that document about removing barriers and obstacles to full inclusion and participation. That is fundamentally what this law does.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I will share my remaining time with my colleague Mr. Hogg.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

MP Hogg.

[Gordie Hogg, South Surrey—White Rock, Lib.]

Thank you.

You made reference to a gold standard coming out of this, to setting a gold standard. You also commented on the UN rights of individuals, and that we fall short of those. Could you reconcile those two comments for me?

[Carla Qualtrough]

I'm not sure I made the second comment, but I can certainly say that it's a work-in-progress with regard to our full and complete implementation of the UNCRPD. We have a way to go in Canada.

Quite frankly, this will go a way towards that, but it is a very high standard to be fully inclusive. I can't tell you a time or a certain point at which our country will be fully accessible and inclusive, but that's definitely a goal we should all share.

[Gordie Hogg]

Well, one of the principles of policy development is often not just the engagement of the end-users of the policy, which you talked about, but also their involvement in the implementation of the policy. We see around the world a number of instances where the policy development has worked extremely well and then it's been lost in the implementation.

Do you have a process in mind or in place that will allow those people who were consulted in the development of the process—who are end-users, in many instances—to also be involved in ensuring that the implementation is consistent with the expectations that were laid out when the policy was developed?

[Carla Qualtrough]

I think that's a fundamental misstep that legislators can make, and I don't think that's been done in this case. Two examples immediately come to mind, but there may be others. First of all, there's the idea that on the board of CASDO, more than 50% of individuals have lived experience. The technical committees of that body will also be significantly comprised of people with lived experience.

The second piece is the requirement for federally regulated entities to create accessibility plans. Those plans must be done in conjunction with and in consultation with citizens with disabilities. Progress reports have to be done in consultation with Canadians with disabilities. Every step of this process that we've put in this law has, as far as I can tell, a requirement for the ongoing participation of Canadians with disabilities.

[Gordie Hogg]

Thank you.

You made reference near the beginning to the word “clunky”.

[Carla Qualtrough]

I think I said the system was very clunky.

[Gordie Hogg]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We have very little time left with the minister.

Next on the list we have MP Nuttall.

Unfortunately you won't have your full five minutes. Maybe you could ask just a brief question.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, there has been a report cited by The Conference Board of Canada about the economic benefits related to removing those barriers to full accessibility. Within that report, if they've been able to calculate the economic benefit, I'm sure they would have calculated what the costs are to get there. Could you describe what those costs are?

[Carla Qualtrough]

I don't believe they did that math. I apologize, but as was said, we can definitely get that to you.

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I have about 25 seconds left.

As a follow-up to that, when you said there are things we can do on day one, and I think those that are already live within provincial jurisdictions were what was being referred to, surely those costs have been looked at and could be shared with this committee as it's going through its study.

[Carla Qualtrough]

Are you saying, for example, that if we adopt the Ontario accessible customer service standard, we can figure out exactly how much that will cost?

[Alex Nuttall, Conservative, Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON]

I'm saying that you said there are things we can do on day one and we will, so those items that you cited and said you will enact on day one, if you know what they are, could you provide what they are?

If they've been done elsewhere, which is what you've said had happened, could you provide what the costs associated with that are so that this committee, as it's going through the study, can use those to help determine some of its steps going forward?

[Carla Qualtrough]

I would suggest that I would recommend ones that are easy to adopt. I wouldn't preclude picking those. I don't think I could tell you how much it will cost to update websites to a certain standard, but I can tell you the standard of an accessible website, the globally recognized standard of an accessible website.

What I'm struggling a bit with is the implication that somehow there's a threshold beyond which this would cost too much. I don't think that's an acceptable premise. I apologize.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the participants here today; and of course, thank you, Minister, for your time.

[Carla Qualtrough]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We are going to suspend for a very brief moment to allow the minister to get on with her day. We're going to come back and continue questions with the government officials who are present.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

All right, everybody. We'll come back to order here.

Just before we get started with questions, there are two things I want to remind people of.

First, I don't mind if you walk behind me if you need to get to the other side of the room. However, can we please do our best not to walk in front of the interpreters?

Second, as a request, please try to slow down. I'm fairly liberal with my timing.

[John Barlow]

Oh, there you go. There you go.