Human Resources Committee on Feb. 21st, 2019

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

You raised the question of people coming from foreign countries as temporary foreign workers and not having good qualifications, such that they cannot be put directly into a job. They have to get the training. Do you think there should be any changes to the immigration set-up so that they can start immediately or so the skilled people can be selected from foreign countries and brought here?

[Robert Bronk]

The big issue is safety and language. If it's a new construction site and you have all these trades at work and they don't know what each other is doing, safety is a huge issue. If they can't speak English and comprehend, it becomes a problem. Let me give you an example.

The Ministry of Labour in Ontario has a number of regulations with respect to equipment. A lot of construction trades use scissor lifts and Genie lifts. They use swing stages. In order to operate that equipment, you have to pass a written exam as well as a practical exam. If your comprehension is not there, you're not going to be able to get trained properly so that you can use that equipment. How can you be dispatched and work until your language skills are such that you can pass? You're not allowed to operate that equipment until you have that record of training, that ticket.

Health and safety are really important. If there are gaps in language and you can't get that training.... Rosemarie alluded to the underground economy. A lot of times, the underground economy is taking these people and putting them to work, and they're getting killed. I don't need to talk about some major front page accidents. A lot of times the people were not from Canada, couldn't speak English and weren't aware of their right to refuse dangerous work. They were sent to do a job that was the only work they could get and they died.

That's what happens when you send out people who are not trained properly. Never mind the skilled trades training. It's about the health and safety training. If they can't get that training and pass those tests or use that equipment, bad things happen.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Bobby Morrissey, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

What's been interesting about this study is that not much new has been presented relating to how we train for skill shortages within basic labour components. Part of the reason the motion was moved is that we have a looming labour gap in specific trades, and the suite of programs that this country offers, both provincially and federally, has not addressed that. For years, I've heard guidance counsellors in our schools not educating young people about the value of trades. I have a composite high school in my area, but the composite part is closing because there are just no students going in.

This will have an economic impact on our ability to carry out significant capital infrastructure projects. There are both sides of immigration coming in. You referenced that we don't get a lot of immigration from countries that have highly sophisticated trade programs, so then we're depending on immigrants from countries where they are not trained.

Is there an area where we should be doing more to address this and to bring in people from countries that do not have those levels? From a programming side, how do we address that side of it to avoid the issue you referred to as the accident occurring because they were not trained and there was a language barrier?

[Robert Bronk]

There are laws in place already.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

The laws are there—

[Robert Bronk]

The laws are there. I still think there's a huge awareness issue within Canadian society right now. You say they're closing down in Ontario. A number of years ago all the shop programs were shut down, so kids were not even taking shops anymore, which has a long-term affect as well.

I still think an awareness campaign.... For example in Germany, they do not differentiate between the trades, colleges and universities. They're all have equal status and look how successful they are.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Germany was pointed out as reference model country 10 years ago.

[Robert Bronk]

Yes, but everyone nods their heads and nothing happens.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Yes.

[Robert Bronk]

The problem is that there are some best practices, but they need to be adopted.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You made one good recommendation. Obviously, with regard to mobility within our own country, I hear all the time from skilled...asking why should they go. They can't claim.... They get a standard employment deduction—I think it's $1,000—on taxes generally across the board, but you don't have it.

This committee will end up doing a report that's focused on the GTA, but it exists in all pockets across the country.

[Robert Bronk]

Yes.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

It's going to have to be a blended approach of continuing to focus on the value of skilled trades within our own population. We'll have to do better because we've heard this story before and it hasn't been addressed.

Part of it is the recruitment of people to this country to grow the population to deal with that. How do we better prepare to have them successfully integrate into the construction environment now?

[Robert Bronk]

There are pre-apprenticeship programs. The unions are already doing this. There are programs in place. There's ESL. There's a lot of this already taking place, but it needs to be scaled up. That's one of the issues.

Also, I still think that the awareness issue in high schools is just not there. It's still not there. Parents in Toronto, they want their kids to go to U of T or George Brown. They think, “Oh my goodness, you want to be an electrician?”

Skills Ontario or Skills Canada had a really cool ad. They had a Mercedes and the licence plate said “Doctor”, and then they had an Aston Martin and it said “Lawyer”, and then they had another high-end car and it said “Plumber”.

When you look at how much tuition a person pays to get all those things.... I think the cut-off point is at 50 years old. If you start off in the trades as a plumber, “you're earning while you're learning”. That's the phrase. You're making money while you're an apprentice. It takes, I don't know, 30 years or so before the lawyer and the doctor catch up because you can make that much money in a skilled trade. It's the perception that it's not equal.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I agree.

I want to follow up on a question raised by my colleague, Mr. Long, because I've had a number of young people who were in the apprenticeship program. They were in the plumbing trade. They told me that the contractor wouldn't hire them back because the plumbing company was saying, “Well, you'll get your red seal, then you'll leave, start a company on your own and compete with us.”

[Robert Bronk]

That's very short-sighted.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

It is occurring.

[Robert Bronk]

Yes, I know. You're going to have people like that everywhere, in every industry, across the board. That's very short-sighted.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I agree.

MP Barlow, please.

[Robert Bronk]

There was a phrase I used to have in on my email footer. It was something about those who are afraid to train their workers because they'll lose them. I'm paraphrasing it, but if you don't want to train your workers and you're afraid you're going to lose them, then guess what? They might stay. If you keep them, then they're untrained. Yes, there's always the risk that you're going to train people and they'll leave, but the problem is that they might stay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Barlow, please.

[John Barlow]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to split my time with Mr. Diotte.

I just have a couple of quick questions for our friends from CFIB. I appreciate your being here.

I wasn't planning on asking the first one, but with all due respect to my colleague, Mr. Sangha, I'm concerned that we're going down this path of the community benefits program in Bill C-344, as if that is somehow going to address labour shortages. Our concern with that bill is that it is nothing more than additional red tape and costs for SMEs. There's a lot of ambiguity in the bill. The minister may request this. There's no definition of what “community benefits” mean. I think this is virtue signalling again, by a government that is not paying attention to the economic impact this will have on SMEs.

I'm just curious. Have you done any work with your members on the the impact a community benefits program would have on your members?

[Monique Moreau]

Thanks for the opportunity.

No, we have not, in Ontario, but we did poll our members on a similarly designed bill in B.C. There was very little support, for the reasons you mentioned. Adding layers of paperwork to securing contractors or in the situation where an SME becomes a sub, as Rosemarie mentioned, which is very common.... They're still required to comply and provide the paperwork, and it becomes problematic.