Human Resources Committee on Feb. 21st, 2019

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

The other issue we found is that we had, on a public housing work site, which is under CUPE's governance.... A social enterprise started within the neighbourhood to switch out high-volume water toilets for low-flush toilets.

[Rosemarie Powell]

You're talking about Building Up.

[Adam Vaughan, Liberal, Spadina—Fort York, ON]

They were chased off the construction site by a CUPE local because it was taking the place of.... They were saying it was taking the work away from a unionized workforce and that they were cutting wages, effectively, by providing this entry-level position.

How do we make sure that we protect union work but at the same time create pathways to participation when you have the very people who are arguing for social justice arguing against it when it appears on the job site?

[Robert Bronk]

I'm curious as to why CUPE would be involved in this because they're not a construction union. They're a public service union. They shouldn't be doing that work to begin with.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I have to cut you off, I'm afraid. We're way over time.

Mr. Duvall, please.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming here.

One of the things, Mr. Bronk, that you mentioned was about European countries and not many skilled people. I understand from the regional manager of the carpenters union, from western Ontario, that the carpenters union has visited places such as Scotland, Portugal, Italy, Ireland and many European countries with skilled tradespeople who are willing to come to Canada. They want to immigrate to Canada. They want to be here.

[Robert Bronk]

Right.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Unfortunately, to immigrate permanently to Canada, under our current federal laws we don't offer that option.

Many of them would like to come over, immigrate or bring their families over after a year or so because it's a hardship.

Do you believe we should be looking at changing the law to allow this to happen?

[Robert Bronk]

To be frank, I think we need to look at programs like community benefit agreements first, and look after.... There's a whole labour pool we haven't tapped that is just starting to get tapped into.

Yes, I think that would be a partial solution, but I think there's a big block of Canadian citizens who would like to get into the middle class with these highly skilled, well-paid jobs.

To answer your question, I think we should investigate this option as well as look at people who are already skilled and allowing them to come to Canada.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

This leads me to my next question.

My understanding is that we do have a lot of skilled labour that's not being used because of some companies not paying a fair wage. There's a difference in wages.

If you look even at apprenticeship training, union has a higher percentage of completion rates than that of non-union, because of the big gap. You can pay anywhere from $19 to $44, in some regions. Where are you going to get a skilled electrician who is going to work for $19 an hour? That's not going to happen.

[Robert Bronk]

There's a difference between the compulsory trades, like electricians, and the voluntary—I don't like the word “voluntary”—the non-compulsory trades. In the non-compulsory trades, I can buy a pair of white pants and get my van, go to Home Depot, get a paintbrush and I'm a painter.

If you never go to a training centre and never become a registered apprentice, are you actually a skilled tradesperson? You're not actually working on that path like you are in college or university to get that degree or diploma, that journeyman's status. Your skill level is going to increase with the more experience you have, but at the end of the day, is that really skilled trades? You're not taking the whole scope of work. If you're with a contractor who only does this little bit of work, that's all you know. You're not a journeyperson, because you don't have the whole scope of work. Is that really a skilled tradesperson? You're employed in the trades, but are you a skilled tradesperson?

I would argue that the union sector has pushed more of this training on its members. I have a few numbers here. There are $40 million a year invested in Ontario in specialized apprenticeship and health and safety training. That's in addition to the money the provincial government gives for apprenticeship training. The unions have invested heavily into skills and health and safety training. It's difficult for a non-union contractor to get all of that training, because they're a one-off. The unions have created over 95 unionized training centres across Ontario. So it's easier, and more used, for union skilled workers to get their skills, as well as their health and safety training, which is really important. We want everyone to go home safe.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I absolutely agree.

On another issue you've brought up, which I hear is very critical, we have a lot of skilled tradespeople who might be made idle because there's no work in that region. You have [Inaudible—Editor]—

[Robert Bronk]

Yes, labour mobility.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

—in Toronto, where the demand is bigger. Those people could be offered jobs where it's needed in Toronto, but they are not allowed to claim expenses. If they're clearing $1,000 a week and they're spending 50% of those wages on expenses, what's their incentive to...?

[Robert Bronk]

There's the higher cost of living. You're not seeing waves of people from Alberta coming to Ontario, like when the economy crashed in Alberta. The cost of living is so high that they can't afford to move to Ontario.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Right.

Do you feel that there should be some type of incentive where they could write off some of their...?

[Robert Bronk]

That was part of my proposal. Accountants, lawyers and salespeople can do that. People who live in Barrie are working in downtown Toronto.

Sometimes it costs $30 a day to park your truck. You have to bring your tools, hard hat...you can't hop on the TTC.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Do you feel that's a critical issue that we should be looking at?

[Robert Bronk]

That would help labour mobility, for sure.

[Scott Duvall, NDP, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Up next, we have MP Sangha, please.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for coming today and giving us this good, valuable information.

I'm from Brampton Centre, which is just at the outskirts of the GTA. We have a very great labour shortage problem in Brampton. In my riding of Brampton Centre businesses are flourishing; the construction industry is flourishing all over, but labour shortage is a big problem.

Constituents have come to me. One is Didar Singh, from ASCO. He and his colleagues came to my office and wanted to know how they can survive in the business, because of the labour shortage and non-retention of labour. They're not able to retain people. Skilled people come. They stay for a few months, and then get jobs with more income and move away. They're not able to retain them. They have told me stories that they're losing business. They're hiring people who are not experts or trained. They don't do the jobs properly. Their jobs are being turned back. It's a very vexing problem at this time.

There's a gap. You have not discussed the gap. Rosemarie Powell has discussed the community benefit agreement of Bill C-344. That's my bill.

[Rosemarie Powell]

That's right.

[Ramesh Sangha, Liberal, Brampton Centre, ON]

I know that it will be coming up very shortly. When it becomes a law, it will be for only the federal infrastructure investment. At this time, this juncture, we are facing a big problem regarding the shortage of manpower. How do you think that gap can be filled?

[Robert Bronk]

I have a couple of suggestions that I didn't actually talk about.

The federal government has offered the loan program as well as the completion grants, but the federal government also controls a lot of money in construction. If they had procurement language not just for the big infrastructure projects but for having, for the sake of an example, minimum apprenticeship levels.... Let's say it's at 10%, so that whoever bids on this job has to have a plan to hire 10% apprentices.

A lot of times in the voluntary trades, apprentices drop out because they don't get enough work hours. They might get only 1,500 work hours, not 2,000 hours. It's not so much that they didn't like the job; it's that they have bills to pay and the cost of living in Toronto is very high.

The federal government, the provincial government and the city control a lot of money when it comes to construction procurement. If there were this language in that criteria to win that job, that would create a pipeline of apprentices getting hired. Contractors would have to hire 10% apprentices. That pipeline would be fed and people would move up. They would get their hours and they wouldn't drop out. They would complete their apprenticeships and become journeypersons, and you would have a success.