Human Resources Committee on June 6th, 2019

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

With your final numbers in your report—

[Sylvain Ricard]

They're their numbers. We asked during the period under audit that they maintain for us the stats of the calls so we could use them and report on them.

[Dan Ruimy, Liberal, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Was that in those four call centres or overall?

[Sylvain Ricard]

It was in those call centres.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Dusseault, go ahead, please.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Ricard, I'd like to come back to an observation you made about Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.

In 2012, the department closed many offices that were open to the public. That was the case in Sherbrooke, where I'm from. I mention the name of my riding today because we suffered the consequences of this closure in 2012. Before that, people could meet someone in person in an office on Wellington Street, in downtown Sherbrooke. The department also closed offices in other Canadian cities.

Since people had no choice but to use the telephone service, the department received a significantly higher volume of calls. However, instead of asking for more resources to meet this new demand, the department decided to reduce services. It decided to stop responding to general inquiries because it was taking too long or because its resources were insufficient.

Have you observed the same thing in other departments? Are there departments that have decided to cut services, without regard for clients, rather than hire more people to meet the increased demand? The correct response would have been to better fund and organize call centres to meet the needs of citizens.

[Sylvain Ricard]

I'll ask Mr. Goulet to clarify whether we have information on that.

You referred to paragraph 1.37 of our report, where we mention that in 2012 IRCC closed regional offices, which increased call volume. In 2015, the department stopped responding to general inquiries. After that, 70% of the clients' comments related to the fact that they could not obtain information.

In response to this situation, in 2017, the department resumed responding to general inquiries. In 2018, it rehired people in call centres. This is the example we gave, but I'm not sure if we have similar information on other call centres.

[Jean Goulet]

Absolutely. This example is very relevant to access and response time standards. We didn't look at the issue from a service reduction perspective. We didn't find a similar situation in other departments.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

In 2015, the department's reaction was to stop answering calls, but it wasn't necessarily the right approach for meeting client expectations. At least it ended up making adjustments.

My other question concerns service standards. You said that the Treasury Board Secretariat, or TBS, has established three minimum service standards. Did your study allow you to determine whether the TBS is doing anything to ensure that call centres meet these three service standards? Or has TBS simply issued three service standards and done nothing to enforce them through government call centres? Can you provide us with some insight into TBS' relationship with departments to ensure they meet these service standards?

[Jean Goulet]

We have made a recommendation with respect to TBS that it clearly specify to call centres and their responsible departments the direction to take to ensure that the standards they have put in place are in accordance with TBS recommendations, which are relevant to Canadians, transparent and consistent.

This recommendation has a second component, which relates to the publication of results related to compliance with these standards. Service standards must be published, but also whether they have been met, so that Canadians have a better idea of what is happening when they decide to use one of these call centres.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Is this because you found that TBS wasn't following up with departments to ensure that they were meeting the standards?

[Sylvain Ricard]

At paragraph 1.44, we state that TBS did not provide clear direction and did not provide monitoring.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Okay.

You said that TBS has three service standards, but what are you referring to?

[Jean Goulet]

They are accessibility, response accuracy and timeliness.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

These are more general standards. Figures or time aren't necessarily given.

[Sylvain Ricard]

These are areas where there should be a service standard and which should be assessed to determine what action should be taken, if any.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

TBS didn't say that the standard should be between 10 and 15 minutes, for example?

[Sylvain Ricard]

No. It indicates which sectors standards should be established for, while specifying that it should do so in consultation with Canadians.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Okay.

TBS asks that standards be established for these three areas, but it lets the departments establish their own standards based on their reality.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Yes.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

If such service standards were established, ultimately, it would be TBS that would be responsible for monitoring it, according to you and it, I imagine.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Very briefly, please.

[Jean Goulet]

What we're saying is that TBS should ensure that service standards are in place, but that it doesn't have to specify the details.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

We have some time, and I understand that MP Barlow has a brief question.

[John Barlow, Conservative, Foothills, AB]

Yes, thanks.

I have just one last question that I didn't have an opportunity to ask earlier. You mentioned the fact that there's a lack of capacity, maybe, in some of these call centres with regard to the volume of calls. The thing in your report that really bothered me the most was—and I know all of us in our offices deal with it a lot—a number that really jumped out at me: inaccurate information given to callers about 30% of the time.

We have to understand that if this is an immigration issue or an EI issue, this could cause somebody to miss out on a payment or to get an overpayment. I know that we've had a few.... I've had new Canadians or people here on work visas being asked to leave the country because they've filled out some paperwork the wrong way, or because when they call one time, they hear, yes, you need to do this, and when they call another time, they hear, no, you need to do that.

On that number—that 30% or so—provided from call centres giving inaccurate information, I'm assuming that this data is coming from the departments, that you're just having to go by what the departments are giving you in terms of the data they're collecting and this isn't data that you were able to find on your own.