Human Resources Committee on Oct. 27th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I apologize. We are way over time on that one, but I am hopeful that we have somebody who will ask you another question and we can continue with that. It was very interesting.

We'll go over to Mr. Long, please.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests. It's great to see so many Atlantic Canadians represented on the panel today. I don't have to explain our situation in Saint John.

My questions are actually for you, Mr. Hughes.

I read one of your reports here, and you talk a lot about early intervention and early learning and how important that is in the fight against poverty. I'd like you to elaborate a little more on early intervention, how important it is, and what government can do from a federal perspective. Again, you speak in your report about lining up both levels of government, federal and provincial. I'd like you to elaborate a little more on early learning, early prevention, and what that can do. What ideas do you have for us?

[James Hughes]

Thank you very much.

Maybe I'll be slightly self-serving off the top here and say that there's a great book that has been written on that. It's called Early Intervention and is published by Nova Scotia publishers.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Who wrote that? What is the author's name?

[James Hughes]

Yours truly wrote this last year. It's the James Lorimer publishing—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

He's going to be signing copies later.

[James Hughes]

Signing copies? There's one left here. We're going to do an auction, maybe, and see what we can get for it.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Obviously the book speaks for itself, but I want you to elaborate on how important this is and what you think we can do to aid in that from the federal perspective.

[James Hughes]

I think that when you study, as I have—although not as a professional scientist—the issues of poverty and others, you realize fairly quickly that the earlier one intervenes in terms of people with vulnerability.... As soon as we have signs of vulnerability and fragility, and as soon as there are signs of problems, we know that those risks are getting bigger. If we can equip ourselves to intervene earlier, a couple of really great things happen.

First of all, individuals and families are better off. This is based on research in areas that go everywhere from poverty reduction to homelessness to early intervention in child care, school violence, and autism. The topic of health is probably the best example overall of intervening early for the benefit of individuals and families morally, clinically, spiritually, and physically, but so often we find that early intervention also is good for the state. Because we are actually intervening early and paying early, we're not paying later on.

I know that's notional. Everyone says that intervening early saves us money, but this is a compendium of some examples of that.

I think the best evidence is ahead of us in terms of how we actually use health economics to predict those savings going forward, because there really are savings, but in terms of a federal perspective on this, it's always been my view that in negotiating with the provinces in particular, because that's what the federal government is really good at.... We get our transfers to individuals and transfers to provinces. Historically it's not necessarily the best in terms of service delivery, but negotiating with provinces based on an early intervention lens actually can bring significant benefits to both federal and provincial governments in terms of savings over time periods that sometimes exceed political mandates and budgets, but that often are the best investments overall.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

You could envision negotiations between the feds and the provinces, maybe with some strings attached, focusing the provinces more on early learning. You can look at examples in Finland and Germany, where children basically are wrapped into the school system from years two, three, and four. Can I have your thoughts on whether you think that's possible?

[James Hughes]

I think it is.

It doesn't even have to be in terms of straight-up transfers. It can also be in terms of loan-type programs. Remember, if these are supposed to pay for themselves, then provincial savings can actually return the money to the federal government. It can be a really interesting conversation in terms of how to build an early intervention fund that benefits the federal government, provinces, and individuals and families.

I think your example of early intervention in education in Finland is a really interesting one. The results are phenomenal by having that very thinking, so I'd encourage the creation of a body and a fund that may have different pieces to it.

I know that social innovation and social finance work may be a great place to park that reflection. I know that work is going to be starting. I know also that the philanthropic sectors are really interested in that kind of thing as well.

[Wayne Long, Liberal, Saint John—Rothesay, NB]

Very quickly, in Saint John we've obviously met extensively with a lot of community groups, neighbourhood groups, corporate entities, health care workers, and police. They all list mental health as one of the major problems that's linked to poverty.

What are your suggestions as to what we can do from a government perspective in aid for the mental health problem?

[James Hughes]

It's the orphan of the health care system, of course, and it's treated unequally with regard to other forms of health. Some people don't even think it's a health issue.

I think the commission's work has been excellent, but I think there's a huge void to fill. I think federal leadership in the area of mental health, through the Canada health transfer, ring-fencing mental health funding, and focusing on integrated care, particularly at onset for young people aged 18 to 25, is absolutely the best early intervention you could possible make. The savings to the system, from criminal justice to homelessness and housing, are off the chart. Also, as I say, it's very low-hanging fruit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We'll go over to MP Tassi, please.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

I'd like to thank all the witnesses today for your valuable input and for your patience.

Ms. Barnwell, are you still with us?

[Georgia Barnwell]

Yes, I am.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Oh, you're a champ. Thanks so much.

My question is directed to you, but Ms. Lord, you may wish to answer too.

We've heard from you today, as well as from other witnesses, that poverty disproportionately impacts Canadian women. I know that you both have first-hand experience in this. I'm just looking at commenting on some of the barriers that lead women into poverty. A couple have been mentioned: education and training, and motherhood and child care. Have you any to add to the list, and are there solutions that might help address these issues that women face?

[Georgia Barnwell]

Thank you very much for that question.

We feel that, again, there's a term that's being recognized around the table, “holistic and comprehensive approaches”, that recognize the full range of health, social, and economic needs of people living in poverty. In that way, if those broad areas are addressed, then we can create a foundation on which to build economic security, given that there's a job market available to the person.

Probably more important is the need to balance the inequity and disparity that comes with capitalism by providing social programs and initiatives. The federal government really should be working with Canadians to devise a progressive tax system that enables the implementation of social programs. We really do need a paradigm shift in our collective thinking. Many of us realize this.

Certainly poverty is created by policies. Federal and provincial policies create and maintain women and all low-income Canadians in poverty. Through education policies, people end up with high student loans, which prevents people from getting education and prevents people from paying off student loans. People are very reticent to make that huge investment when there's a poor job market.

Employment insurance is shrinking. Eligibility for people in precarious employment is shrinking every day. Social assistance policies obviously do not provide adequate support—we've had a lot of talk about that—and certainly pension policies have an effect. The Canada pension plan is geared to someone who has a lifelong connection to the workforce, someone who is not taking time out to look after children or for elder care.

These programs need to be strengthened to recognize the diversity of our experience and needs, rather than just presuming everyone is going to work nine to five for 47 years, or whatever the time is.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Barnwell.

[Georgia Barnwell]

Yes, so—

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Sorry, Ms. Barnwell; it's just that time is tight, and I'm trying to get in as much information as possible.

[Georgia Barnwell]

Absolutely.

[Filomena Tassi, Liberal, Hamilton West—Ancaster—Dundas, ON]

Ms. Lord, can you comment on that as well?

[Stella Lord]

Yes.

I'd agree with everything that Georgia Barnwell just said. We have to remember that early learning and child care are key. I think that was mentioned by the previous speaker as well. Let's remember that women are also a diverse group, and racism is a factor for some communities in Nova Scotia. Women also account for a main population of people with disabilities, be they physical disabilities or mental health disabilities or other issues.

Many of these women are on income assistance, and I'd like to really stress what I was trying to say before about income assistance and the need to try to transform that into an income-based program. Nova Scotia's employment support and income assistance program, ESIA, is going through a transformation process. As I understand it, there are a number of concerns there, one of them being transitions from income assistance to employment, which was also referred to earlier. One of the main things they want to address—and this is only in terms of proposing a business plan, so I guess it will have to go to the Nova Scotia government cabinet to address it—is a marginal effective tax rate, and they're also talking about trying to reduce the barriers within the income assistance system itself. If you look at the various federal and provincial tax credits, you see they're up and down like a yo-yo, so there are all kinds of financial barriers in the system that need to be addressed.

The refundable tax credit developed under the Canada child benefit is a great program and really needs to be built on, in my view. I think we do need a disabilities refundable tax credit similar to that. The Nova Scotia government has a few refundable tax credits in its income assistance program, but these need to be coordinated to develop an income-based program that is not creating false barriers, that actually moves to an income-based program rather than a needs-based program based on punitive regulations around employment, around cutting people off, and all that kind of stuff.