Human Resources Committee on April 18th, 2023

[Jean-Luc Racine]

Yes. We often hear about the assimilation of francophones. In fact, it begins in early childhood. I have heard from many people, including very recently from two francophone parents from New Brunswick who had to place their child in an English-language day care. Later, when they had their child tested by a specialist for a language development issue, they realized that it was not a developmental problem, because the child was doing very well in English, but was having a lot of trouble learning French.

That is why amendments to the bill that we are putting forward are necessary. The importance of day care services for francophone minority communities needs to be recognized. That must be included in the bill. The bill must also include everything relating specifically to funding, along with all the other clauses we are proposing.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Racine and Mr. Dupuis.

My first language is Hebrew, but is very difficult for my daughters to speak that language,

even though they were in a Hebrew school for early education, so I understand how important it is to maintain a culture and language.

For my part, French is my fourth language, so I apologize for my mistakes.

I'd like to switch, if I may, to Marilou Denault and Fondation Lucie.

Your organization's mission is to “prevent poverty by contributing to the creation of conditions conducive to the development of the full potential of all young people living in Quebec”.

Drawing on the experience of Quebec—of which we have 25 years to look at, which is really quite amazing—in planning out this nationwide, high-quality universal child care system, can you speak to how essential affordable, high-quality and inclusive child care is to the healthy development of young people? You did mention in your opening remarks the science and the evidence behind it.

I had the opportunity to meet with the team at Sainte-Justine earlier in the year and received a lot of evidence there, but I'd like to hear from Fondation Lucie if possible, from either Ms. Japel or Ms. Denault.

[Marilou Denault]

If I understand correctly, you would like to know what effect child care services have on preventing poverty and you are asking me whether, in Quebec, it has been noted that child care services have had that effect. Is that correct?

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Yes, that's right.

[Marilou Denault]

Since child care services were instituted, we have seen exponential growth in women's labour market participation. If I remember correctly, their labour market participation rate rose from 66% to 80%. In Ontario, it rose from 66% to 70% over the same period.

The number of families living under the poverty line also decreased as the child care services network expanded. It is a fact: offering child care services is an extremely powerful poverty prevention measure.

[Dr. Christa Japel, Representative, Observatoire des tout-petits, Fondation Lucie et André Chagnon]

May I add something?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Please go ahead.

[Dr. Christa Japel]

This new family policy was originally intended to help families with the challenge of balancing work and family responsibilities. It is indeed a success.

In terms of access to quality child care services, there is still work to be done. The Quebec model is always mentioned, but I think...

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Japel, thank you. We're way over time. You may want to continue in an answer to another question.

Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for appearing before the committee. This bill is important for our children.

I would also like to thank the interpreters. Without them, it would be impossible to communicate.

Ms. Denault, can you elaborate on what you said earlier about the quality of child care services? How can that be measured?

[Marilou Denault]

I will let Dr. Japel take that question.

[Dr. Christa Japel]

I will answer briefly as it is a very broad topic.

The quality of child care services is a construct. The research refers to structural quality, which includes ratios, compensation and staff qualifications. It also refers to the quality of the process, that is, the quality of interactions between staff and children, and between staff and parents. There are many aspects.

In North America, there are two measures that are used a lot: the ECERS scales, for the preschool level, and the CLASS system, the classroom assessment scoring system. The ECERS scales cover a whole range of factors, such as furnishings, personal care, activities, interaction, daily schedules, and so forth. The CLASS system is used to evaluate interactions during two 25-minute periods, but does not evaluate the overall environment. That is very important, however, so there is room for improvement in that regard.

Do I have any time left?

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

You still have some time, but perhaps Ms. Denault would like to add something.

[Dr. Christa Japel]

I do not want to forget the two studies conducted by the ministry as part of its Grandir en qualité inquiry. During our research in the longitudinal study of child development in Quebec, for which I was was responsible for the child care quality component, the only reason we chose the ECERS scales was that they had been translated into French and validated, which allowed for comparison with a variety of countries. Those scales are used in Europe, the United States and no doubt somewhere in western Canada. They are updated regularly to make them more specific, and lend themselves very well to customized training. I have used the scales as part of quality improvement initiatives, because there are some things that should definitely not be observed while others must be observed. As a result, progress can readily be made by changing one element in the sequence.

These scales are similar to the Maslow pyramid, and there are a number of them for each age groups. I really liked the definition of quality suggested by Thelma Harms, one of the three authors of all of these scales, because she said the starting point must be the child's needs. All children in all countries have the same needs: to grow up in a safe and secure environment, in which they can develop meaningful relationships with others and be surrounded by adults who are sensitive to their needs and respond to them appropriately. Children must also be able to develop an interest in learning, language skills and all their skills through activities suited to their abilities. That is a simplified summary.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Can you talk about the quality gaps between the early childhood centres and the for-profit child care centres and the reasons for those gaps?

[Dr. Christa Japel]

International studies and those we have conducted here in Quebec, namely, the longitudinal study of child development in Quebec and the two studies conducted as part of the Grandir en qualité inquiry, revealed a significant quality gap between non-profit child care centres, the so-called early childhood centres, and for-profit child care centres.

People wonder why and I always say the reason is in the name. For-profit centres want to earn a profit, and they do so by hiring workers with less training whose wages are lower and by cutting corners on educational material. That explains many of the gaps.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Dr. Japel.

We'll now go to Ms. Gazan for six minutes, please.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

My first question is for Mr. Dupuis or Mr. Racine.

In Winnipeg, I represent a community called Winnipeg Centre, which is right next door to St. Boniface. We have an absolutely rich Franco-Manitoban community, which in fact is very much tied to the Métis community of Manitoba, and certainly the French language. The way it's been maintained in St. Boniface, which is very much an Anglo city, is pretty marvellous.

How can Bill C-35 be amended to better reflect the unique child care needs of official language minority communities, or even language minority communities?

[Alain Dupuis]

In our brief, we propose seven amendments, but I will focus on two of them in particular.

The first pertains to clause 8 of the Bill C‑35, regarding funding commitments. It is very important that we add a provision stipulating a financial commitment to official-language minority communities. Too often, and not just in the case of early childhood, but for all programs for which there are federal transfers to the provinces and territories, the services are not actually offered because no budget or quota has been set on the basis of demographic weight.

Let us consider Mr. Racine's example, where francophones in New Brunswick account for 33% of population, but have access to just 15% of child care spaces. The federal framework legislation must stipulate a funding commitment for a number of places that is at least equivalent to the demographic weight of francophones. That said, so few places have been available to francophones over the years that there could be some catching may be needed along with a greater investment based on demographic weight.

The second amendment pertains to clause 11 of Bill C‑35, relating to the National Advisory Council on Early Learning and Child Care. We would like at least 10 of the 18 Council members to represent francophone minority communities. The Council must consider the reality of francophones outside Quebec, since it is responsible for providing a framework for all future transfer payment agreements.

[Jean-Luc Racine]

I would also note that the first point raised by my colleague Mr. Dupuis is very important. We have looked at many previous studies, from 2017 to 2021, and found that, without a funding commitment, the provinces' investments are next to nothing. So a commitment is always necessary.

Consider British Columbia, for example, whose government has made a $52-million commitment to indigenous peoples. We are very happy for them, but for francophones, the government has only committed to holding consultations.

That is why Bill C‑35 must include strong provisions relating to funding and respect for minority communities.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you.

My next question is for Dr. Japel.

You wrote an article in 2021 that the non-profit child care centres, the CPEs, are “the jewel in the crown” of Quebec's child care system. You've also written that “for-profit child care is less likely to deliver the levels of quality needed to foster children's development, school readiness and well being.” Can you please expand on that?

[Dr. Christa Japel]

I'm trying to remember if I really wrote that it's “the jewel in the crown”, because we are still struggling with the CPEs because they had so many cutbacks. We can say they are better than the for-profits in terms of quality.

With regard to school readiness—which, if I understand correctly, was your other question—we noticed that children who were in a CPE had an advantage. The problem is that the children who most need this kind of a setting are under-represented. Vulnerable populations are less likely to have a space in the CPE. The effect that the CPE could have for their school readiness is very, very weak, because they are not in very good settings.

I did a study about pre-kindergarten. We have full-time pre-kindergarten now, and I wanted to see if the quality of the pre-kindergarten did have an impact on school readiness in a population of children from socially disadvantaged backgrounds. I realized most of them.... Twenty per cent were not in child care before going to maternelle 5 ans. Of those who were in child care, a very small proportion were in the CPEs, and the others were in for-profit and family-based care. We have seen in our studies within the Quebec longitudinal study something interesting, which is that if you look at an upper socio-economic class and a lower socio-economic class and you look at the quality of the CPEs, you see that they're not very different, but if you go into for-profit day cares, they're lower. There is a big quality difference. As well, for home-based care, there's a big quality difference.

What I'm saying is that we need to work on creating more CPEs and, coming back to access, get the children who most benefit from these better settings to be there, because that will narrow the gap. The gap is still there between children from affluent—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Is that it?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame, we're well over the time.

Ms. Japel—