Human Resources Committee on Feb. 5th, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

I call the meeting to order.

First of all, we hope that Mr. Morrissey has safe travels.

Welcome to meeting number 98 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on November 27, 2023, the committee is continuing its study on the subject mater of supplementary estimates (B), 2023-24.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of all participants.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation, those on Zoom have the choice at the bottom of their screen of either floor, English, or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Although this room is equipped with a powerful audio system, feedback events can occur. These can be extremely harmful to interpreters and cause serious injuries. The most common cause of sound feedback is an earpiece worn too close to the microphone. We therefore ask all participants to exercise a high degree of caution when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on. In order to prevent incidents and safeguard the hearing and health of interpreters, I invite participants to ensure they speak into the microphone that the headset is plugged into and to avoid manipulating the earbuds by placing them on the table away from the microphone when they are not in use.

I will remind participants that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. For members on Zoom, please use the “raise hand” function. The clerk and I will manage the speaking order as best we can, and we appreciate your patience and understanding in this regard.

Now I would like to present the witnesses for today's meeting.

We have the Honourable Terry Beech, Minister of Citizens' Services, and the Honourable Seamus O'Regan, Minister of Labour and Seniors.

From the Department of Employment and Social Development, we have Sandra Hassan, deputy minister of labour and associate deputy minister; Cliff Groen, associate deputy minister and chief operating officer for Service Canada; Karen Robertson, chief financial officer; and John Ostrander, business lead, benefits delivery modernization.

Each minister will have five minutes to make statements.

Minister Beech, you have the floor.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Minister of Citizens’ Services]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

It is a great pleasure to be here with you today.

to discuss the 2023-24 supplementary estimates (B) as they relate to the Citizens' Services portfolio.

Before I start, since this is my first appearance, it gives me great pleasure to be at this committee, especially with a British Columbian in the chair. It makes me feel at home, so I'm happy to be here.

The creation of a new ministry to serve as the Government of Canada's champion for service delivery excellence comes with a mandate I take very seriously.

First and foremost, it's to place Canadians at the centre of how we design and deliver their services.

Business does this naturally. Competition ensures that products and services are regularly simplified and improved. We must eliminate repetitive paperwork and the need to stand in line or to wait on hold. We must adopt new technology to improve the customer service experience that meets the unique needs of Canadians, whether they are in rural Manitoba, the Arctic, P.E.I., or downtown Vancouver.

If I was to describe my mandate in the simplest possible terms, it encompasses dental, digital and customer service. “Dental” is code in some ways, as it includes not just the onboarding of nine million Canadians onto the largest benefit program in Canadian history but also the delivery of Canada's largest digitalization transformation project through the benefits delivery modernization programme, or BDM.

OAS, EI and CPP benefits represent $1.5 trillion over the next 10 years and 39% of the annual federal budget.

I'm also the minister responsible for Service Canada, as well as the Canadian digital service.

The government was pleased to launch the first phase of the Canadian dental care plan on December 11. As of this morning, more than 500,000 seniors are now enrolled in the program in every province and territory.

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Madam Chair, there is no French interpretation.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

Thank you, Madame Chabot.

Give us a moment here. We're testing this right now.

Do we have interpretation? Is the interpretation working in French?

We're going to suspend for just a moment.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

It looks like we now have interpretation working, so we'll go back over to you, Minister.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Do you want me to continue from where I left off, Madam Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

Why don't we go back just a few sentences?

Madam Chabot, did you hear any translation, or did you hear nothing from the minister? Can you please confirm?

[Louise Chabot, Bloc, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Can we go back a few sentences, please?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

Thank you, Ms. Chabot.

Go ahead, Minister. Go back a few sentences.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

As we last tuned in, we were talking about the 500,000 seniors who, as of this morning, have enrolled in the dental care program. Of those, 73% who applied did so without human interaction. Those who did contact the specialized call centre had waiting times of less than a few seconds.

When it comes to the passport program, we continue to encourage Canadians to apply for a passport as early as possible before booking a trip. In December 2023, 96% of passports were issued within one to 20 business days and the passport backlog of 313,000 from last year has been completely eliminated. Between April 1 and December 31, 2023, we issued more than three million passports.

We continue to drive innovation through the use of automation and artificial intelligence. Soon individuals will be able to renew their passports online, which will eliminate altogether the need to wait in line and will shorten the lines for those who choose to do it in person.

In the meantime, we launched an online passport application status checker, and 1.5 million people have utilized it to track the real-time status of their applications. Those are individuals who don't need to call the call centre or wait in line. It's an example of a government service that is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. You don't have to take time off work or pay for parking to use it. It is simply a better way of providing the service than was previously available.

We've also expanded the capabilities of the eSIN program. This is a digital program from start to finish that provides millions of transactions online. This is important, because every transaction is one less person standing in front of you at a Service Canada office.

Another example of improving our digital service delivery is the benefits delivery modernization initiative. In the past year alone, we've delivered $147.3 billion in crucial benefits like EI, CPP and OAS to over 9.5 million Canadians. I am pleased to report that we successfully deployed the first release of OAS on BDM this past summer, and 600,000 Canadians are currently receiving their benefits through the new platform. The full migration of OAS remains on track for December of this year.

Since 2017, the BDM programme has spent $817 million, while Treasury Board approvals to date amount to $2.2 billion over a period of more than 10 years.

This leads me to the supplementary estimates.

For BDM, we're requesting an adjustment of $54.2 million. This is a re-profile of funds that were approved to be spent in 2022-23.

Madam Chair, I'd like to thank all members of the committee for inviting me here today and for the work that you do every single day, not just at this committee but in the House and in your constituencies. It's a lot of work, and you often do it away from your families and with competing priorities. No matter how partisan discussion can become in the chamber or even at committee, I reflect often on the fact that we are all playing for the same team. We all want Canada to be successful.

That collaborative effort has made our country one of the best places in the world to live. Delivering a modern customer service experience is an important part of building on that legacy.

Thank you for having me today. After my colleague speaks, I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

Thank you, Minister Beech.

Minister O'Regan, you have five minutes.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, Minister of Labour and Seniors]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for having me. I would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

I want to give you an overview of what I'm working on, and then I'd be happy to take some questions.

I work as the Minister of Labour and as Minister for Seniors, and really, if you look at what drives both of these things, it's dignity. It's making sure that Canadians have dignity in their work so that workers have not just jobs but good jobs—jobs they're trained to do, jobs that they're well paid to do and jobs that are good for them in mind and in body.

I want every senior to age with dignity. That means that they're not making hard choices at the checkout because their fixed income is too tight, and if they need new dentures, they can afford them. They can age where they want, surrounded by the community and the people who they choose.

As the Minister of Labour, I feel that the federal government needs to set the bar for workplaces. That means looking at employers and workers in federally regulated sectors and constantly asking them how we can do better.

In December 2022, we brought in 10 days of paid sick leave for these workers. Workers called for it and employers supported it. The Canadian Bankers Association, Via Rail and others spoke out in support of it, because no worker should have to choose between getting paid and getting better.

Last December we tabled legislation to ban the use of replacement workers during a strike or lockout. Replacement workers distract from the bargaining table, prolong disputes, and can poison workplaces for years. Our economy depends on employers and unions staying at the table and doing the hard work they need to do to reach a deal. Bill C-58 is not the same bill that's been brought to Parliament in the past. It was developed through tripartism with workers and employers. Sometimes I was in the room with both of them at the same time. Conversations were tense, but the result was a bill that is going to keep the bargaining table fair and balanced. It also strengthens the maintenance-of-activities process, which is something both employers and workers asked for.

I will use this moment to say that I have the utmost respect for my NDP colleague Alexandre Boulerice and his partnership on this issue. I'm disappointed that after 75 days of tabling legislation, we haven't got the support where we need it, but we trudge on.

When we talk about the government setting the bar as an employer, that is right down to hygiene. As of December 15, all federally regulated employers must provide free menstrual products in the workplace. It's common sense. Workplaces provide toilet paper, soap and hand sanitizer, and it's past time we did that with menstrual products too.

Setting the bar means admitting when things aren't perfect. We have not reached pay equity in the federal sectors, but to close the gaps, we need to know where the gaps are. Last Friday we launched Equi'Vision, an online, first-of-its-kind pay transparency website. You can see—by industry and minority—rates of pay, and you can compare them.

As Minister of Seniors, I am responsible for ensuring that seniors can age with dignity.

That comes down to choice, affordability and community.

Last year, my predecessor and the former minister of health announced that the National Seniors Council would serve as an expert panel to examine measures, including a potential aging-at-home benefit. The panel has completed its work, and we are currently reviewing the findings.

We developed a federal policy definition of mistreatment of older persons. This is important for a culture change in public awareness regarding this important issue, although the federal policy definition will not replace jurisdictional definitions and will not be included in any Criminal Code amendments.

We need to do a lot more for seniors. That's the least we can do.

Finally, I'm working with my colleague, the honourable Minister of Health, to develop a safe long-term care act to help ensure that Canadians get the care they deserve, while still respecting provincial and territorial jurisdictions.

I'm also very concerned with defending and preserving the Canada pension plan. There is no one more dependent on our social security systems than seniors, and they deserve a government that is proud of the systems we have in Canada: GIS, OAS, CPP, universal health care and dental care. We are committed to protecting them.

Thank you.

I look forward to taking your questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

That's great. Thank you, Minister.

We'll go to questions now for six minutes.

I will have the first line of questions. My questions will be for Minister Beech.

Minister, I want to confirm that you were the lead on the development and implementation of the benefit delivery systems, which included the benefits delivery modernization programme, the largest IT project in Canadian history.

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

Yes.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

That's great. Thank you for confirming that.

Minister, the original budgetary estimate for the benefits delivery modernization programme government IT project was $1.75 billion. Is that correct?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

The original estimate of the budget was made several years ago, at the beginning, and it was exactly that—an estimate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

Great. Thank you for confirming that.

Minister, in November 2023 it was reported that sources in your department, ESDC, suggested that the new price estimate on the benefits delivery modernization programme was almost $8 billion.

Can you confirm this?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

I can confirm that we have spent $853 million to date and that we have Treasury Board approval for up to $2.2 billion.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

Minister, the recent Auditor General's report on the benefits delivery modernization programme stated that the cost could go as high as $3.4 billion. Isn't that correct?

[Terry Beech, Liberal, Burnaby North—Seymour, BC]

I can only confirm what the Treasury Board has stated. What I will say is that when it comes to the provision of a program like this, which is so technically large.... In fact, you described it as the largest digital transformation project in the history of the country, encasing not just OAS but EI and CPP as well. We need to be agile, and there is a lot of learning that we're doing along the way.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

I have a point of clarification, Chair, to understand the order of business today. You're starting questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

Yes.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Which side is next?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Tracy Gray]

As always, we're following all of the normal procedures.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Okay. What does that mean, exactly? Does it come to the Liberal side?