Evidence of meeting #27 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was families.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Through you, Chair, I want to thank the Wu family, the Cormier family and the Slinn family for talking about their stories and for building upon an absolutely horrific incident to bring about advocacy.
From a policy standpoint, I'd like to start with Ms. Spinks.
Thank you, Ms. Spinks, for your advocacy and your policy development.
Taking this in a different sense, are there any families right now, based on the current reading of this bill, who would not benefit from the adoption of Bill C-222?
Chief Executive Officer, Work-Life Harmony Enterprises Ltd. As an Individual
In the intent of Bill C-222, no parents who are currently eligible for EI would be left out of this program, provided that they met the medical criteria for this to be a birth and the infant was lost within 12 months.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
In terms of the medical criteria, do you professionally have any further amendments to or recommendations on the bill as it stands?
Chief Executive Officer, Work-Life Harmony Enterprises Ltd. As an Individual
Having done some background work for this particular bill, I would not add anything at this point. I do think that, as part of the implementation, there need to be funds allocated in the next budget to support organizations like the ones these folks represent in order for them to implement this for families, households and hospitals coast to coast to coast.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Ms. Cormier, thank you for being here today.
You talked about sensitivity training and the supports and structures that employers can have within their culture and climate. Do you have any recommendations in terms of what that might look like for employers, from your perspective? I'm sorry, but it might be a big one.
Chair, SIDS Calgary Society
I'll elaborate on what Ms. Spinks said. Those resources are available for organizations like ours, such as SIDS Calgary Society, Lachlan's Light, Empty Cradle and PAIL. As the other gentleman said, we take our heartbreak and turn it into advocacy. There's no lack of resources out there. It's about mobilizing and implementing them.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Ms. Wu, thank you for your courageous story about what it might have looked and felt like to go to Service Canada and make that statement as to why you were there. Thanks for sharing that personal experience with our committee.
How important is it that parents who lose a child while already on maternity leave, as you mentioned, or while on parental leave have the time and financial stability to focus on their grief?
As an Individual
I was very fortunate that I had the time and the finances, so I was able to decide for myself. Aside from my maternity leave, I took an additional two to three months off. My work was very supportive. Looking back at that experience, it was very impactful for me to be able to use that time to grieve. I cannot imagine what it's like for families who don't have that time or who feel that they have to go back to work due to finances. I can't imagine.
When I went back to work, as some people said here, I was not functional. Even after taking six to seven months off, I was not doing much. When I went back to work, everything was still in a fog. As mentioned, I was just floating. For families who don't have the time, I just cannot imagine.
Liberal
Jessica Fancy-Landry Liberal South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Thank you very much, Ms. Wu. When you look at families and vulnerability, where I come from in Nova Scotia it's quite a rural and remote area. I can imagine that feeling of isolation and the lack of support and wraparound services. I want to thank you in terms of your story and perspective.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you.
Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Spinks, Quebec has been a pioneer in recognizing these specific needs within its Quebec Parental Insurance Plan. I imagine it would be very good to see Bill C‑222 aligned with this at some point.
You mentioned a law: Could you briefly return to that subject?
Chief Executive Officer, Work-Life Harmony Enterprises Ltd. As an Individual
To my knowledge, there hasn't been any consultation with the Quebec government around QPIP and how this will impact what they're currently doing or thinking about. It's something that will need to be done.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
I imagine there will be a way to consult on such a sensitive issue and reach a conclusion.
Ms. Wu, beyond financial benefits, what support services should be developed? Could these include psychological support or community services? How do you envisage the services that could be provided under this bill?
You touched on the subject, as have other witnesses, but I would like you to tell us more about it.
As an Individual
I can speak only to the experiences I had. As I said, I was very fortunate to have a lot of resources. Even then, it was very, very difficult to find support. It's not a subject that a lot of people are ready for. Being able to readily access information, having the support at work and at home, and having people and friends know what to say at that time would have been very impactful.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
That’s perfect.
Mr. and Mrs. Slinn, in your opinion, would it be appropriate and important to offer families a minimum period of guaranteed financial support to allow parents to grieve without financial pressure?
Director, Metro Vancouver Empty Cradle Bereaved Parents Society
Anything that would be offered would probably be gratefully accepted. When you are thrust into the world of bereavement after the loss of a child, you can't focus. You don't even know what is available or how to access what is available. Imagine: Now we can all go to our computers and look up resources. Thankfully, there are some resources available. When we lost our child in 1995, the Internet was something we could only dream about and imagine. It took us two months to find Empty Cradle.
The first group we discovered was something called Compassionate Friends. The main difference between Compassionate Friends and Empty Cradle is that Empty Cradle specializes in pregnancy and infant loss. Compassionate Friends deals with the loss of a child at any age. While we were trying to grieve the loss of a baby we had never even met until she was already deceased, we were confronted by parents who had lost their child to suicide, murder or car accidents. It was extremely traumatic. I believe that set my grieving back considerably, at that point.
To be able to have access to resources, information and compassionate people who truly do understand is very important.
Liberal
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK
Thank you very much, all of you, for being here and for being willing to be vulnerable and share something that can be very difficult, and thank you, some of you—again the Cormiers—for doing that again. In a sense, it's almost like a revictimization, because you're having to live that again and share that again. The loss of a child is unimaginable, simply unimaginable, so I want to thank you each for having the strength to come here and share your testimony.
Unfortunately, we've heard that our current EI program can add administrative stress and also financial pressure at exactly the moment when compassion and support are needed the most. We know this bill seeks to address that gap, and this change is long overdue.
Again, I would just like to acknowledge Sarah and Lee Cormier.
As you mentioned, you appeared before this committee on this issue almost eight years ago. Your testimony at that time left a profound impression on many of us who were sitting around this table. During your testimony, you shared that you were told by Service Canada, “Your child ceases to exist, so therefore [your] benefits will cease to exist.” You will never know the impact that has had on me as somebody here in this place. I repeat that to many, many people, because it's unacceptable that bureaucrats or departments would speak like that to people who are dealing with such a sensitive issue.
I just want you to know that what you've shared isn't for naught. It really sucks, and I apologize that you're here again because the law hasn't changed. Even though people have tried to change it, it hasn't. I just thank you for your perseverance and your willingness to show vulnerability and be vulnerable in this place.
I think your testimony, then, really underscores the need for a more compassionate and empathetic approach in our systems all over the map when it comes to the government.
Sarah and Lee, if you don't mind my asking, through your advocacy and your connections with other families who've experienced loss, have you found that their experiences with the system have been similar?
Chair, SIDS Calgary Society
Yes. Thank you so much. Thank you for the question, and thank you for your kind words. It's very impactful for us.
I think we've come up against it. Over and over again, that's what we hear. The time is now, for sure.
I'll reference a colleague from SIDS Calgary who's been a member and the registrar since the early eighties. During these 10 years, he came to me with a piece of paper. It was the baby bonus in the 1970s or 1980s. It was $25. One of his twins died, and he said, “I have to pay back.... Look, Sarah; it's on paper.” He had a letter, a mailed letter to him, saying to pay back the $25. His son died; his daughter lived. He had to pay it back—$25. I think we've been dealing with this for far too long, for sure.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK
Peter and Nancy, just with regard to your advocacy work, are you finding that things are getting better when grieving parents have to deal with the government?
Director, Metro Vancouver Empty Cradle Bereaved Parents Society
One of the biggest things is that everybody expects they will bury their parents.
Conservative
Director, Metro Vancouver Empty Cradle Bereaved Parents Society
A number of us will have to attend a funeral for a sibling, an older brother or whatever—I'd better watch it because I'm number one—but nobody has their head around how they may have to deal with the death of an infant. It's unknown to them that this could even happen. This also affects employers trying to figure out how to deal with this situation.
Madame Larouche and Garnett Genuis asked what you can do to have our back in these matters and what else you can consider while you're thinking about this. It would be to include in the interpretive literature or website that goes with it how to do certain things that it has mentioned. Every employer has to look up how to deal with leave at the death of a parent. Just have a phrase in there about how, if there is the death of an infant or any offspring, they have to deal with this. It's just so that they can get their head around the issue before it is sudden—because it is sudden when you're a parent. You may have heard that your dad has cancer or that one of your friends is going through a health crisis that could end very badly. Some end very immediately too. However, in almost every situation of stillbirth neonatal loss, there is only a moment's notice that this is what's going on. You say, “My child died?”, and they say, “Yes, and you have to deliver him or her.” You're not prepared.