Human Resources Committee on March 26th, 2026

[The Chair (Robert Morrissey (Egmont, Lib.)), Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Good morning, committee members.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30 of the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on Thursday, February 5, 2026, the committee is meeting for the first hour on Cúram Software and the processing of old age security. Pursuant to the order of reference of Friday, March 13, 2026, we will be meeting on Bill C-20 for the second hour.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. There will be those participating virtually and in the room.

Before we begin, I would like to review a few points, please.

For those in the room, make sure your devices are on silent. As well, for the benefit and health of our interpreters, please try to avoid tapping on the microphone boom.

You have the option of choosing to participate in the official language of your choice. Make sure you are on the proper channel in the room to participate in the language you choose. If you are appearing virtually, click on the globe icon at the bottom of your Surface and choose the language of your choice.

Direct all questions through me, the chair. Wait until I recognize you by name before you participate.

Beginning our first hour on the software for and the processing of old age security, we would like to welcome the Honourable Patty Hajdu.

Welcome back, Minister. You're a regular attendee.

We also welcome the Honourable Joël Lightbound, Minister of Government Transformation, Public Works and Procurement and Quebec Lieutenant.

We also have with us Paul Thompson, deputy minister, Department of Employment and Social Development, and Cliff Groen, associate deputy minister, and chief operating officer for Service Canada. From the Department of Public Works and Government Services, we have Arianne Reza, deputy minister, and Joëlle Paquette, associate assistant deputy minister, procurement branch.

Ministers, you each have a five-minute opening statement.

Madam Hajdu, you have the floor.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Jobs and Families]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, committee members, for having us here today.

I am pleased to be here to speak about the modernization of the benefits delivery program and specifically address program costs. As you know, many questions have been asked in the House. There have been briefings for MPs, but we wanted to have an opportunity to share with you how the new system is working and the timelines and accuracy of payments.

In order to understand where we are now, we have to go back 14 years. Independent oversight bodies, over the past 14 years, have raised serious concerns about the risks associated with aging IT systems. In 2010, the Auditor General warned that failing to modernize the old system placed the benefits of millions of Canadians at risk, including old age security, pensions and employment insurance. Quite frankly, that's an unacceptable risk to the many millions of people who rely on on-time delivery of benefits for their livelihoods.

The government chose to act in 2017. The benefits delivery modernization program is a responsible response to these long-standing warnings and is designed to safeguard benefit delivery and ensure systems are functional, reliable and fit for the future.

This committee's study of that report said, “it is essential that departments properly prepare for and manage the maintenance or upgrading of their aging IT systems.”

When our government began this work in 2017, OAS benefits were still delivered on a 60-year-old legacy system that was practically the age of the clients being served. The systems delivering Canada's major benefit programs are outdated and increasingly difficult to maintain. Over the last 10 years, it has cost more than $1 billion to keep them running, and with every passing year, maintenance becomes more expensive and more risky. This is simply not sustainable.

The benefits delivery modernization program is a massive undertaking of crucial importance. Any interruption could significantly affect recipients' ability to meet their daily needs, such as buying food—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Excuse me, but we have a point of order.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

We're not having interpretation come through, unfortunately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I will suspend for a moment while we check interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I apologize, Minister. Continue.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you.

Doing the job correctly has required significant investment. At the same time, costs have remained stable and well managed.

Between 2017 and December 31, 2025, the government spent $1.8 billion on this program. The recently completed old age security and benefits delivery modernization project was delivered as planned and under budget.

As with any project of this scale, estimates evolve as the work progresses. Our focus is on managing these costs carefully while continuing to deliver benefits to Canadians.

The program's long-term estimate of $6.6 billion now covers the completion of four main projects by 2031—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Minister, I'll have to suspend again, as we're not getting interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

I apologize. The technical issue has been corrected.

Madam Minister, you have a chance to conclude your opening comments.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you.

The program's long-term estimate of $6.6 billion now covers the completion of four main projects by 2031: the full transformation of benefits delivery for all of old age security, employment insurance, and the Canada pension plan, and modernizing all of Employment and Social Development Canada's 14 call centres.

The full scope of costs could not possibly have been known at the outset. Other jurisdictions that went through modernization programs, such as the United Kingdom and Australia, experienced higher costs than what was initially estimated at the outset—in some cases to the tune of 600% more.

This demonstrates the difficulty of modernizing legacy systems that are critical to the vulnerable people who rely on them. Of course, this point was reinforced in the 2023 Auditor General's report, which noted that early estimates were “well below” industry average and which recognized that estimates would be updated as the full scope of work became clearer.

Current estimates have been refined over time due to three main factors. One, we have a better understanding of the complexity of unravelling 60-year-old systems and the work required. Two, cybersecurity threats have significantly evolved since 2017, and we need to ensure that the solutions we're building today can address them. Three, the scope of the program has expanded. For example, in 2017, the migration of the 14 different call centres was not part of the original scope.

Regarding the new platform, Cúram is one of the most widely used systems for delivering social benefit programs globally.

The system we're implementing is designed specifically for complex benefits delivery and supports 970 social programs in 12 countries. Our procurement strategy is competitive and follows both Treasury Board and PSPC guidelines. Expertise in cybersecurity and data architecture is scarce, and no organization, public or private, can complete a program like this alone. It must be a partnership.

Every contract includes clear deliverables, financial caps and phased work. All contracts are competitively awarded and proactively disclosed in accordance with the rules in place.

We are fully transparent. We follow standard practices, and the BDM program is subject to rigorous oversight by central agencies and the Office of the Auditor General of Canada.

Finally, let me address the concerns that some people have noted about payment delays. I know that for seniors this is challenging, and it's not acceptable.

As of last month, the new system had issued 89.6 million payments to more than 7.7 million clients, with a value of $84.7 billion in benefits. Some seniors who are applying for the first time to OAS have waited longer than they should, but these delays were not related to a system-wide issue. The new system is in fact reducing backlogs and new applications more efficiently than the legacy system. It's also improving our ability to prevent fraud and detect errors.

The new platform is working. This transformation has been undertaken in a responsible and transparent manner in a series of well-planned and prudent phases within the appropriated budget.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Minister.

Minister Lightbound, you have five minutes.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Minister of Government Transformation]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for having me for the first time here at the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities.

I'm pleased to be here to talk about a subject that directly affects the lives of millions of Quebeckers and Canadians: the government's ability to reliably deliver the benefits our citizens depend on.

At the heart of this initiative lies a fundamental responsibility. Every month, seniors, workers and families depend on programs such as old age security, the Canada pension plan and employment insurance.

These programs deliver hundreds of billions of dollars every year. They are predicated on a clear expectation that the system works—and works flawlessly. However, the fact is that a large number of these programs still rely on systems designed over 50 years ago. These systems have been adapted, extended and stretched, but now they've hit their limits. The more complex they become, the more they cost to maintain and the greater the risk of errors and disruptions. As Minister Hajdu said, the Auditor General identified those risks back in 2010 and described them as monumental for Canadians who depend on these benefits.

In a world where Canadians expect fast and reliable digital services, maintaining the status quo is not a responsible option. That's why we're taking action. Public Services and Procurement Canada, together with the Treasury Board Secretariat and Shared Services Canada, is supporting Employment and Social Development Canada as it undergoes a major transformation: replacing aging systems with a modern, secure platform capable of evolving as needed.

Our approach is rigorous. The role of my department, Public Services and Procurement Canada, is clear: to conduct open, fair and transparent procurement processes and ensure strict contract management. In 2021, following a competitive bidding process, a $120.5‑million contract was awarded to IBM for the technological platform: the Cúram software. At the same time, four integrators were selected to maintain competition and avoid excessive reliance on a single supplier.

We're already starting to see results. Old age security has been running on the new platform since 2025, a major milestone that demonstrates the transformation is well under way. To be clear, however, this kind of modernization doesn't happen overnight. It is a complex undertaking that must be carried out gradually to avoid any disruption to benefits.

The other options—either rushing things or doing nothing—would have posed far too great a risk to Canadians. We had a choice to make: continue investing in increasingly fragile systems designed for a different era—as my colleague mentioned, old age security is a 60-year-old program—or make the necessary and responsible decisions to modernize public administration and service delivery. We chose to act with discipline, transparency and a clear goal: ensure that Canadians can count on their benefits now and for decades to come.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Lightbound.

Mrs. Falk, you have the floor.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I just want to note that, given the committee agreed to have both ministers here for two hours each and we are having them both for only one hour, and given the technical difficulties we've experienced, I expect the rounds you've been given will be respected and that members here will be able to engage in this meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Falk. I was going to advise that I was prepared to adjust for the suspended time.

[Rosemarie Falk, Conservative, Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK]

Perfect. Thank you very much, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

We'll begin the six-minute round with Ms. Roberts.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the ministers and the staff for joining us.

My first question is for Minister Hajdu.

Canadians are reporting significant delays and disruption in receiving their old age security and GIS benefits, and frontline staff are reportedly working long hours just to keep the system running. Can you tell us how many seniors have been affected so far, whether that number is expected to increase and how many employees are currently working overtime to fix these issues, along with the cost to taxpayers?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

As I've said in the House a number of times, well over 7.7 million seniors have now been migrated to the new system and are receiving their benefits on time and without any delay or any complication.

There are a number of new applicants, largely, who have submitted mainly by paper and have seen delays in receiving the commencement of their benefits. We have been working through that delay for those affected seniors, and we're seeing significant progress in reducing the number of people waiting.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

The last number we received was that there were 69,000 cases still past due. Is that accurate?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It's 63,000 now.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

It's 63,000. Can you tell the seniors who are listening today how quickly they will be receiving their funds given the cost of living? One of the seniors brought to my attention that she had to go to her family to borrow some money because of this delay and was very embarrassed to do it, so she decided to go to the food bank. Can you explain to seniors why this system has not worked efficiently for them?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Actually, in many cases, for the people who are waiting on the waiting list, it's a case of missing information. I can't speak to that particular senior, but there are often cases, with paper applications in particular, where information is missing, information around time of residency in Canada, the number of years.... You need to have lived in Canada for 40 years to receive full OAS. If you've been absent for a period of time, the department has a responsibility to make sure it understands with evidence when you've lived in Canada. Sometimes those documents are difficult to get.

Each case is different, and of course I'm not implying that that's the case for this particular senior, but that's why we have the support line and the rapid access to support through ESDC for any urgent cases, because if someone is relying on OAS—not everybody does—they need to get that immediately.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

I'm glad you brought that up, because with one of the delays—I'm sure a lot of seniors aren't comfortable with the modernization—she did call, and she ended up having to hang up after two and a half hours.

Let's go back one step. A lot of staff and employees of that department are concerned about their mental health because of the overtime. How much more overtime is going to be required and at what cost to taxpayers?