Human Resources Committee on March 26th, 2026

[Natilien Joseph, Liberal, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Okay, there are 9,222 left.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Joseph.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lightbound, quickly, beyond the initial cost overruns, there's a fundamental question that remains unanswered: How much does it actually cost to operate the system today?

During the technical briefing, officials were unable to provide us with the operating costs, the cost per transaction and the costs related to licences and maintaining the system. That's concerning, because we're talking about a public system that manages essential benefits for millions of Canadians. Without that data, it's impossible for Parliament to exercise its role of true oversight over the use of public funds.

Do you know what the current annual cost of the Cúram program is, and what the projected cost is?

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

I will let Mr. Groen answer your question.

Right now, we're talking about $633 million to implement the Cúram system for the old age security pension.

[Cliff Groen]

During the technical briefing we gave to MPs and the media, there was a question about the costs of continuing to operate the program after 2031. I answered that we didn't have the specific costs of the specific licences. We don't have any contracts yet, because that's in five or six years from now.

However, I can confirm that the costs associated with rolling out the program will certainly be lower than the current costs thanks to the automation and modern capabilities of this system. Obviously, the costs associated with rolling out the program will go down because of the modernization of the system.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

To ensure that we have all the information, including the cost per transaction, the existence of any licences associated with the system, and the detailed and broken down operating costs, including the annual training cost, software licences, cloud hosting and maintenance costs, I move the following motion:

That the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities request that the Department of Employment and Families, the Department of Government Transformation, Public Works and Procurement, the Privy Council Office, as well as the Prime Minister’s Office, provide to the clerk of the committee, within 30 days of the adoption of this motion, all reports, correspondence, emails and documents related to the management of the Benefits Delivery Modernization since January 1, 2017, and that the departments and offices responsible for producing the documents apply redactions in accordance with the legal obligations set out in the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act.

I hope that there will be a written response to this motion within the next two weeks, that is, April 10 at 11 a.m.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Madame Larouche.

I have to suspend to consider the motion by Madame Larouche, because we do not have it in writing. The clerk does not have it.

We'll suspend for a couple of moments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Committee members, the meeting is back in session.

I'm at the hands of the committee. There was a motion moved verbally, but the interpreters were not able to accurately deal with it.

Yes, Ms. Koutrakis.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Mr. Chair, given that we haven't seen the text, that it was rather quickly read into the record and that I'm pretty certain the interpreters did not have the opportunity to complete their translation as required, I would ask to adjourn debate on this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Okay, we have a motion to adjourn debate on the motion.

You're voting to adjourn the debate on the motion by Madame Larouche.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 5; nays 0)

We'll now return to the speaking order.

Thank you, Madame Larouche.

We'll go to Madame Goodridge for five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's important to lay the groundwork here. We have 63,000 seniors stuck in a backlog and waiting a very long time to get money they've paid into. That's the equivalent of a community the size of Medicine Hat or North Bay. That's not an insignificant number of people, yet the minister celebrates this program as a success. To those 63,000 people waiting to get the money they've paid into their entire lives, I'd say that it's not a success.

Have you guys done any analysis as to how many files have received overpayment under this new system?

[Cliff Groen]

Yes. We do a regular payment accuracy review for all our major programs.

We have a target of 95% payment accuracy for the EI, OAS and CPP programs. The year-to-date result for OAS is 97.5% payment accuracy. Those results are reviewed by the Auditor General.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I appreciate that.

We've heard about how many cases are in backlog in Quebec. How many cases are in backlog across all the provinces? Could you table that with the committee? It's absolutely incumbent on us to understand whether this is a regional issue impacting Quebec at a higher rate or an issue impacting any particular region at a higher rate. Frankly, as a committee, we need to understand this a lot better. Can you commit to tabling that by province?

[Cliff Groen]

Certainly. We have that information.

I would highlight that Quebec represents about 25% of our total OAS clients, but within the backlog of 63,000, it's about 13%. Quebec is under-represented.

We have the breakdown by region. We can certainly table that.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I'm a rural member of Parliament. I have lots of people in my riding who have very limited, if any, access to the Internet. I'm assuming that there is probably a much larger rural-urban divide on this. What is the breakdown on urban versus rural for this backlog?

[Cliff Groen]

I didn't see if we had that type of information. I have not seen that specific information. However, we do have lots of ways that clients can apply for the program, including in our over 300 offices across the country, which are within 50 kilometres of over 95% of Canadians.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

In my riding, that's not really the case. If you're in Fort Chipewyan, you have to get on a prop plane to get to Fort McMurray if you want to apply in person at Service Canada. If you're in Cold Lake, even though it's a military base and even though this is a massive Government of Canada employer, you have to drive to St. Paul, which is an hour and a half away, to get service. There are lots of places in rural Canada that are very underserved by Service Canada, and those are the communities that have the least access to the Internet.

You guys should reconsider having a full-time Service Canada office in Cold Lake because of the F-35 project. I'm giving that plug as a local member of Parliament. Please reconsider this.

There is another piece on this. Have you done an analysis on how many people in the backlog are first nations and living on reserves?

[Cliff Groen]

We do not collect Indian status related to OAS applications. It's not part of eligibility, so that is not information we presently have.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

If they live on reserve, you probably have those postal codes. You should be able to pull those out to see if there is an overrepresentation of people from a variety of backgrounds and to see what the space is and where the problem is.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I appreciate that question as the former minister of Indigenous Services.

Although we will try to get the data for you that we're able to get, I can tell you that, in general, what I have seen over my time is that indigenous and first nations people often are not receiving the benefits to which they're entitled—for example the Canada child benefit. If you don't claim taxes, if you don't file your tax return, you won't get the benefits you're entitled to. In the past, I know ESDC has partnered with Indigenous Services Canada to have clinics on first nations to make sure that people understand what their rights are and how to access those benefits.

In my own riding, it's always an exciting day when we're able to help a constituent with something. In one case, it was $40,000 in back pay on the Canada child benefit. It changes lives.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I appreciate that.

You guys mentioned that many people are stuck in this backlog because you're waiting for more information because they might have lived elsewhere. I know that Monsieur Martial Lavoie, whom my colleague Monsieur Lefebvre helped, is a Quebecker who has lived in Quebec his entire life, so that's not the case for him. Other people I've talked to, and whom my office has helped deal with these issues, were Albertans who had lived in Alberta their entire lives.

How many people in the backlog are you waiting on information for, and how many people in the backlog are stuck because you guys didn't staff up adequately when you did the transfer?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There are a lot of assumptions in that question. Missing information and missing documentation are by and large the reason that people's benefit commencement is delayed.

In the case of this individual, it's hard to talk about his case without.... I'm not even sure it's respectful to talk about his case in a committee like this, but if the individual is still having a hard time getting his benefits, he should connect with Service Canada, for sure. We can help him immediately.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

He did actually go to Service Canada. His member of Parliament got him help, and it was fixed quickly, but the problem is that he had to go to his member of Parliament to get help. That's part of the problem. People shouldn't have to go to their members of Parliament to get something they've paid into their entire lives.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Madame Goodridge, thank you.

I appreciate it, as a member of Parliament, when they come to me looking for help, and I'm glad when we can do it.

We'll conclude with Madame Church.

You have five minutes.

[Leslie Church, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Following up on some the questions of my colleagues from across the table, I would note—maybe the clerk has this—that a regional breakdown was provided on March 12 to the committee. Perhaps that could be recirculated to members so they have that breakdown.

Ministers, thank you for appearing today.

I wanted to follow up on a question and give you a chance to expand on it. We have heard from you about the dangers of the old system, a 60-year-old system that was far past its prime. We heard the warnings from the Auditor General about continuing with that system. What are the benefits of the new system to Canadians, and what accessibility does it offer?