Human Resources Committee on April 20th, 2026

[Richard Lyall]

We have a massive challenge ahead of us. This is a complicated situation. There are so many parts to it. The different measures needed to address the housing problem we have, which has been well studied and well measured, require a level of alignment that requires a new approach.

Do we need another organization? Look, if this is what's going to get us there, and it can provide a focus for all these different issues and the complicating national and social factors, then that's great. We're prepared to do everything we can to help Build Canada Homes succeed.

There are tremendous opportunities here, but it's a huge job, and I think many do not appreciate the complexity of the market factors and technical factors. Many have not, for example, gone to other jurisdictions to see how they have done it right because they're way ahead of us.

There is a housing crisis across the developed world, to one degree or another. In some places, it's really nothing. We just happen to have a really bad one, which begs this question: Why? We're the second-largest country in the world by land mass. Why do we have this problem? We're in it. It's not the people. We have the best people in the world.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lyall.

Ms. Lussier, we have about 30 seconds left. Do you want to add a comment?

[Catherine Lussier]

Of course, for us, regardless of the agency or vehicle used, what matters is addressing the right needs and, ultimately, ensuring that what we put forward in these programs will meet the needs of the households currently most affected by this housing crisis. That's why, for us, it's important that social housing be included if we want to meet those needs and avoid repeating the same mistakes of certain federal programs that missed the mark, as has already been mentioned.

[Caroline Desrochers, Liberal, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Recently, we've been implementing the national housing strategy, and we're starting to work on the next version. However, we haven't managed to significantly increase the percentage of affordable housing in the supply of housing, which still stands at 4%.

We won't have time to talk about it now, but I'll ask the question: If we haven't succeeded despite everything that's been done in the past, how are we going to do so in the future? I think our answer lies in the Build Canada Homes agency.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Desrochers.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's really important to talk about housing and Build Canada Homes, but we must still take various aspects into account. In that regard, I thank you for sharing your expertise with us, Mr. Ross and Mr. Lyall. However, my first questions are for FRAPRU.

Ms. Lussier, regarding Build Canada Homes, we suspect—and the witnesses came to tell us this at the last committee meeting—that the crux of the matter, or one of the challenges, is the unclear definition of affordable housing. You also talked about the unaffordability of housing.

There is therefore some ambiguity surrounding the concept of affordable housing. What impact might that have on the ability, as you say, to meet the needs of households that require it most, namely low-income households?

[Catherine Lussier]

Certainly, by basing a definition on the total income of the sector, including both homeowners and renters, we missed the mark, which is to build housing that meets the needs of those most affected, who are often tenants already spending more than 30% of their income on housing and who generally have incomes that are quite low compared to the Canadian or Quebec average.

Of course, we have to make sure that affordability is truly achieved and sustained. That's why the measures put in place must address this issue and be accompanied by sufficient funding. This is part and parcel of our ability to meet those needs.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

You mentioned funding. Can you give us a little more detail on that?

[Catherine Lussier]

Yes, of course.

When I talk about funding, I'm talking about subsidies that would allow housing to be built while at the same time reducing rents.

Right now, financial arrangements are becoming increasingly complex. Build Canada Homes wants that flexibility. Given the complexity of these arrangements, we are increasingly dependent on private actors in the development of social and community housing. We see a risk in this reliance on the private sector, since everything increasingly depends on the rents for the housing units that will be developed in the next few years.

So it's becoming harder and harder to build housing that will be immediately affordable without sufficient funding through federal and provincial government subsidies, even though we're obviously talking about the federal government here.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Elected officials and organizations are wondering what will happen after the Build Canada Homes bill is passed. They want to make sure housing will truly meet people's needs and suit their payment capacity.

People are saying that after the bill is passed, there will be a single portal and, at least in the case of Quebec, that would be where the procedures need to be carried out, because Quebec would have the final say.

In what way is having a thorough understanding of local needs essential to ensuring that projects truly reflect the needs on the ground?

[Catherine Lussier]

The Quebec model clearly relies heavily on communities and, precisely, on local ownership or local roots. For us, it goes hand in hand with the ability to build housing that will meet specific needs. So, if we want to effectively meet those needs, we need to truly understand the reality on the ground and be rooted in the community. These community roots will also help ensure the long-term sustainability we seek.

Tenant involvement is therefore important. The involvement of local community organizations is also important within the organizations themselves. I'm referring here specifically to non-profit organizations. Obviously, in co-operatives, it's the members who participate in them and keep them running.

So, for us, these community roots are extremely important if we want to ensure the long-term viability of these housing units and prevent the sale of certain buildings. We've seen it happen and we're seeing it again, and that's what we want to avoid. Therefore, these community roots reinforce that sustainability.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Another major problem we see is the commodification of housing. A number of organizations, such as the Granby chapter of the Association québécoise de défense des droits des personnes retraitées et préretraitées in my region, have spoken to me at length about this.

Is Build Canada Homes really the solution to the commodification of housing? If not, what avenue would you like us to explore?

[Catherine Lussier]

To avoid this problem, we must ensure that financial arrangements do not depend solely on private investors. We have to ensure that we don't rely solely on financial products to develop housing. In a few years, there will inevitably be projects, particularly in Quebec. However, we're already seeing that housing is being financed where rents are much higher than the median market rent. It currently goes as high as 150% of the median rent. So these investments are already making housing unaffordable.

Furthermore, we are relying heavily on private investors, such as banks. So what we see coming in the long term is that certain patient capital loans will have to be refinanced, so we will turn back to private institutions to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Ms. Lussier.

Thank you, Ms. Larouche.

We'll now go to Mr. Reynolds for five minutes.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

Thank you to the witnesses for coming here today and sharing your expertise. We really appreciate it.

My first question is for Mr. Lyall.

Just to give a little background on me, I'm a construction electrician. I've been a construction electrician for 20 years and have built many buildings.

There's been a lot of talk about modernizing construction. The buildings in Canada are built based on various parameters: building codes, climate, geography and various building materials. Most construction projects are by bid price. General contractors and builders are trying to build things as efficiently and cost-effectively as possible. It's about the design of the bid specification building process.

As an expert in the construction industry, what is Build Canada Homes going to do to modernize construction that the industry isn't already doing for itself?

[Richard Lyall]

That's a good question. One of the biggest problem areas we're experiencing and have experienced is what I'll call systemic barriers. There are real opportunities in the world of proptech, or property technology. There's Archistar, LandLogic and Devenex. Different companies that can do things a lot faster are coming forward.

It varies in different parts across the country, but certainly in parts of Ontario and central Ontario, that needs to be modernized, and it can be. Things that take months and years to get done we should be able to do in days and weeks. We need to digitize things. Of course, that works backward into the realm of design, with building information modelling and that kind of thing too. There are real opportunities there.

One thing that industry had done well is it has adopted technology well. We've adopted new methods well. We build in other parts of the world. We jokingly say that if you can build here, you could build anywhere.

The productivity measures haven't been really that accurate. One of our biggest problems over the years, as it has taken longer to get things approved, is that things like unit labour costs start looking really ugly. That's not because of the industry's level of sophistication; it's just that we've gummed up the works that much more.

I think Build Canada Homes could play a real role here in driving and encouraging the modernization and digitization of our procedures.

[Colin Reynolds, Conservative, Elmwood—Transcona, MB]

How would you see that playing out? Right now, the way the industry works is you'll have, say, a 20-storey apartment building and two general contractors bidding on the same job. One has new technologies that can build it quicker and cheaper, and the other one has more typical build methods, like fly forms, as you mentioned, or poured-in-place.

Why are these companies not coming forward? Why are they not being awarded the projects? What is Build Canada Homes going to do to change the competitive nature of the building industry?

[Richard Lyall]

If we can systemically improve the way we get things done and eliminate the barriers and some of the costs to building that have been imposed unfairly, I would say, in less than a generation.... Think of a down payment today, for example, in parts of Ontario or the Lower Mainland of B.C., and the increase in taxes, fees and levies in 15 years. If we can do something about that, then I think we'll reduce the resistance to trying new things.

I can tell you that all the cost and bureaucracy have a chilling effect on innovation, so by the time you get to the point where you can actually build the building, you don't want to try anything new. In fact, with the way the industry is organized, the group that is building a building is rewarded for how quickly they can get it done on time and on budget. If you want to try something new, forget it, because the risk there is huge. It's a risk to the people who are building a building, and the costs are already tight.

If we can improve this overall, then we can do other things too. We can afford various climate-related measures, things that pass muster based on cost-benefit analytics, building science and all that stuff. I think Build Canada Homes can encourage that.

One complicating factor, of course, is that the provinces largely have authority over housing, and municipalities are creatures of the provinces, so getting this down to the provincial level is where the alignment is critical between the federal government and the provinces and municipalities. That's complicating it a little more, and I think that's why we're behind more advanced jurisdictions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bobby Morrissey]

Thank you, Mr. Reynolds.

Ms. Fancy, go ahead for five minutes.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much, and through you, Chair, I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here today.

I'm going to direct the first half of my questioning quickly to Mr. Ross.

Mr. Ross, it's nice to see you. In reading about the witnesses today, I see that you were the executive director for the New Brunswick Non-Profit Housing Association. I'm an MP from Atlantic Canada, so I want to put an Atlantic Canadian lens on this.

In terms of co-operative housing projects, I have two right now that I've worked on very closely with my proponents—one in Liverpool, Nova Scotia, and one in New Ross. I'd like to talk a bit about how we can focus on non-market housing, because non-market housing will actually help market housing.

My question for you as the director of CHF is this: What lessons from the co-op housing model, particularly around things like governance, affordability and long-term sustainability, should inform the design of Build Canada Homes?

[Tim Ross]

Thank you for the question and for the maritime shout-out.

I grew up, studied and started my career in the Maritimes. I have many good connections back home, and we have many projects in our pipeline in the Atlantic provinces as well.

There would be an opportunity to focus Build Canada Homes on the value of non-market housing by defining “affordable housing” in the enacting legislation for Build Canada Homes. What are the targets? How do we define affordability? If Parliament wants to have that level of focus, it can do so through the legislation. Otherwise, you will be relying on policy and regulation to direct Build Canada Homes to focus on non-market housing and affordable housing.

The other thing that's really important for the delivery of affordable housing and co-operatives is that we really need to see long-term stability and predictability in funding and in the financing framework. Whether it's private housing or affordable housing, we can't fund housing a fiscal year at a time and through programs that only run one or two years at a time.

We have a significant pipeline of qualified demand through the co-op housing development program, so we would like to see similarly stable, long-term, consistent funding parameters for Build Canada Homes as well.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Looking forward, do you think using Build Canada Homes is an opportunity to transform Canada's housing system towards a more co-operative, inclusive and community-based model?

[Tim Ross]

Certainly—especially if Build Canada Homes focuses on scaling up the right partners focused on those outcomes.

Another thing that Build Canada Homes will really need to grapple with is the fact that non-market housing providers sometimes struggle with the security and guarantee requirements to access financing. The legislation does enable the deployment of guarantees, subject to the approval of the finance minister. Build Canada Homes will need to be very thoughtful about how to deploy them, because the fee load associated with guarantees is often very prohibitive for non-market housing developers, because they lack the balance sheet and liquidity to pay substantial fees.

[Jessica Fancy-Landry, Liberal, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ross.

I'd like to quickly go to Mr. Lyall, and I know my time is almost up.

Mr. Lyall, if we get on talking and you have anything else to add, please inform the committee and send us a brief with that.

Earlier you mentioned cutting red tape, costs, and labour availability. With our build communities strong fund, I was very excited in my riding a couple of weeks ago to have an echo announcement in regard to infrastructure, similar to what we've had with our housing accelerator fund. In rural communities like mine—my riding is South Shore—St. Margarets—construction costs are often driven less by regulation and more by labour availability, materials, transport costs and infrastructure gaps.

I'm wondering if you could tell us some targeted tools or supports that you would recommend to ensure that Build Canada Homes can successfully deliver to our rural markets.

[Richard Lyall]

That's a good question. I hadn't really thought about that one.

When you look at labour supply and skilled trades supply, there's a lot to unpack there. I started an apprenticeship and training innovations conference North America-wide that runs every year. There is an ongoing situation with immigration issues.

Within different jurisdictions, there are issues related to how well we develop young people for skilled trades careers. When you get into certain projects that are more rural and more distant where you need specialized skills, you have to get people there, and there are additional costs to that.