Evidence of meeting #34 for Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was documents.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
There seems to be unanimity, but I want the committee to be clear. I will ask the clerk to read the motion that the committee is being asked to adopt, with the amendment of Madame Koutrakis.
The Clerk of the Committee Alexandre Longpré
Ms. Koutrakis, did you also propose to invite other officials from Employment and Social Development Canada to speak?
Liberal
The Clerk
Here is the text of the amended motion:
That the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills Development, Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities invite Cliff Groen, senior associate deputy minister of the Department of Employment and Social Development and chief operating officer for Service Canada, accompanied by government officials, for a period of one hour to answer parliamentarians' questions on the management of benefits delivery modernization and its impact.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
I'm seeing nodding heads.
(Motion agreed to)
Okay, the motion you adopted is the one that was read into the record by the clerk—so we're clear.
With that, Madame Larouche, we'll go to you.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Unfortunately, I need to resolve another technical issue. I need to follow up with you. On March 26, I requested a list of the contracts awarded as part of the program, including a detailed description of the requirements of each contract, the initial cost estimate for each contract, the actual cost of each contract, an indication of whether the contract is still in progress or complete and list of the contracts for each firm indicating the total cost for this program.
Mr. Chair, this request was made when the ministers came to discuss Cúram. At 8:52 a.m., you made a commitment on behalf of the committee to request these documents. We still haven't received these documents, so I want to know what will happen.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Thank you, Madame Larouche.
I'm going to suspend for a minute while we get this clarified.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Committee members and witnesses, please take your chairs. We'll resume the meeting.
As I suspended, Madame Larouche had a question. I'm going to ask the clerk to speak to it, and it should address the issue.
The Clerk
I can confirm that, at the March 26 meeting, a number of requests for documents were submitted to the department for follow‑up purposes, including the aforementioned request from Ms. Larouche. I received an email this week. I'm just waiting for the translation of the correspondence.
The department said that it was finalizing all the requests from this meeting. We should be able to receive responses to these requests by the end of the week.
Bloc
Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC
Good. Thank you, Mr. Clerk.
Mr. Chair, I hope that you will recommit to giving us this information as soon as you receive the documents from the departments. I can see that you agree. Good.
I have one last thing to bring up.
On March 26, I moved the following motion, for which notice was given:
That the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities request that the Department of Employment and Social Development, the Department of Public Works and Government Services, the Privy Council Office, as well as the Prime Minister's Office, provide to the clerk of the committee, within 30 days of the adoption of this motion, all reports, correspondence, emails and documents related to the management of the benefits delivery modernization since January 1, 2017, and that the departments and offices responsible for producing the documents apply redactions in accordance with the legal obligations set out in the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act.
I'm bringing this up today because the 30‑day deadline is approaching. Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
It's a dilatory motion that Madame Larouche put forward, which would resume debate on the motion from the last time. This was in discussion, but I am going to suspend for a moment before I go to that to allow members to collect.... We'll suspend for a moment.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Committee members, the committee is back in session. We have a dilatory motion on the floor that we will proceed to a vote on. The motion is to resume debate on the motion that has been circulated.
Clerk, can we have a recorded vote on the dilatory motion by Madame Larouche, which is a request to resume debate on the motion you have in front of you.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 5; nays 4)
The motion has been carried, so we are resuming debate on the motion in front of you.
I have a speaking order of Ms. Desrochers, Ms. Falk and Ms. Fancy.
Liberal
Caroline Desrochers Liberal Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I think it's a real shame that this important study is being interrupted. We're almost done with the study on Bill C‑20. Witnesses have come all the way here this morning to share their perspectives and opinions with us, and now this study is being interrupted. We had planned to begin clause-by-clause consideration of the bill soon.
So far, we've heard from witnesses on both sides who've talked about the importance of building more affordable housing. Some families can't find housing that meets their needs. There's a bill before us. There's a solution on the table, but people are once again deploying tactics to drag things out, to block proceedings, to prevent progress on a really important file. I wanted to say how regrettable that is.
Furthermore, the proposed motion calls for a huge number of documents from a department that is busy fulfilling its commitments on critical issues, including the Canada groceries and essentials benefit; Bill C‑222, which we just voted on this week; the national school food program; and the recently announced Canada summer jobs 2026 program, which will create 100,000 summer jobs for young people so they can find work this summer.
The department is busy helping the most vulnerable Canadians, yet some people are trying to delay things by filibustering and demanding documents from very busy departmental employees.
Just last week, after speaking with departmental employees, an opposition member talked about how they work a lot, often late into the night. Now some people want them to give them even more work to do. I don't understand. Why are they doing this? What's the point? The Minister has already testified on the Cúram file. She was here with all her officials. We got all the details for each province. We got information about the case. People are being kept up to date. There's a working group.
I'm not sure why we're suspending debate on a very important issue at this point.
Mr. Chair, I'd like to move:
I move to adjourn debate on this so we can pursue the study we are here to do today.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Okay, we have a dilatory motion to adjourn debate on the current motion.
Mr. Clerk, we'll have a recorded vote on the motion by Madame Desrochers to adjourn debate on the other motion.
(Motion negatived: nays 5; yeas 4)
We'll return to the speaking order I have.
It's Ms. Falk.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK
Thank you very much, Chair.
I know we heard a bit about Cúram. It was not a lot, but I know we heard that there are seniors who need their benefits to pay for their housing. I would argue that it is very important for us to get these documents.
I would like to propose an amendment to the motion on the floor right now to add “pursuant to Standing Order 108(1)(a)” after “That”, to delete everything after “the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities”, and to continue with this:
...order the production of documents related to the Benefits Delivery Modernization (BDM) initiative, including the Cúram platform, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, the Department of Public Works and Government Services, the Privy Council Office, and the Prime Minister’s Office; That these departments and offices provide to the Clerk of the Committee, within 30 days of the adoption of this motion—
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK
The cackling from the Liberals, Chair, is next level.
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK
Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that.
The amendment continues:
a. all internal audits, evaluations, and risk assessments related to BDM since January 1, 2017;
b. all briefing notes, memoranda, and decision documents prepared for Ministers and senior officials concerning the BDM initiative or the Cúram platform;
c. all emails and electronic communications that relate to:
i. system performance issues,
ii. delays or backlogs in benefit delivery,
iii. cost overruns or project risks, and
iv. decisions regarding the Cúram platform and BDM implementation;
d. all contracts related to the Cúram platform and associated systems—
Conservative
Rosemarie Falk Conservative Battlefords—Lloydminster—Meadow Lake, SK
The amendment continues:
e. performance reports and data summaries tracking processing times, backlogs, error rates, system outages and instances of incorrect benefit payments, including overpayments and subsequent recovery actions or clawbacks.
Mr. Chair, we think this is an acceptable amendment, especially given the fact that the Liberals have tried to adjourn debate on this, for one. Something doesn't seem right in that the government doesn't seem forthcoming with these documents. I know that there has been filibustering at other times, including here at this moment, and then trying to adjourn the debate. It's imperative, especially with this power grab that Liberals seem to be taking to dodge all accountability and transparency. This is of the essence.
It's impacting our seniors, who helped build this country. Many we hear from at this committee have been struggling with food affordability, housing affordability and fuel affordability over the past several years.
It's imperative that we accept this amendment so that not only Parliament but Canadians can receive the information that the opposition is requesting.
Thank you, Chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bobby Morrissey
Committee members, we now have an amendment to the motion moved by Ms. Falk. Debate will move to the amendment put forward by Ms. Falk.
I had a speaking order in the past. Now I have an amendment, and I'm going to start over.
Conservative
