Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Nov. 21st, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I'm going to go to Mr. Komarnicki and Mr. Siksay.

We have to be out of here at five minutes to the hour, because a committee will be coming in.

Mr. Komarnicki, maybe we can keep our questions and answers a little brief in order to get to everyone on our list here.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Further to your last comment with respect to family membership and refugees, some of the difficulties that are experienced are perhaps more unique to the refugee system than they are to other newcomers. I'd like clarification on that.

You'll be happy to know the refugee sponsorship program admittance number totals have increased this year from previous years and are perhaps at their highest level.

Resources were one of the concerns you had overseas. Are there any other issues you see that could help to implement it in a more constructive way?

Have you noted any differences between in-Canada applicants for refugees as opposed to those who are asylum seekers or are brought in from refugee camps? Are there any differences between the two groups of people or the two types of applicants, or are the issues the same?

I noticed that in our home province of Saskatchewan, Regina took 200 or thereabouts of Karen refugees, which was a remarkable event for a city in Saskatchewan. Are there any support services you provided for those communities? Do you have any sense of how they're doing?

[Wai Young]

I'll try to keep this brief.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

That's a relative question. Is that right?

[Wai Young]

Absolutely.

Mr. Darcy Dietrich runs the Regina Open Door Society, and he's very excited about the Karen refugees who have come. He's working full steam ahead to provide services for them. The Karen refugees can talk about that in greater detail.

In terms of the sponsorship agreement holders, yes, there is always something we can do. The sponsorship agreement holders is currently a program that is self-funded through churches and through groups themselves. The Canadian government does not provide any particular funds for them, except for some kind of training program so they know what kinds of people to apply for, etc.

But you have to understand, as I said, unfortunately, due to our program restrictions, we actually restrict the kinds of people we allow in because we say they have to be primary dependants, etc.

These are things in terms of making the program more effective for us to be able to use it as a mechanism for attraction and retention. I think we should then be looking at how we can expand some of the criteria within the program to make it a broader and more welcoming program for smaller centres.

I personally believe it can be a very successful program.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

In fact, it might be one way of attracting refugees and newcomers to smaller communities, who might have otherwise come to larger centres.

[Wai Young]

That's exactly right.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Going back to the question I asked, do you notice a difference between the two types of refugees, in-Canada and otherwise? Maybe you want to comment or somebody might want to comment on that.

[Fariborz Birjandian]

Let me comment on that.

I would really suggest that we increase the numbers. I mean, we have a number problem. We used to get 14,000 government-sponsored refugees 15 years ago. Today we're getting about 6,000. The refugee situation has not improved worldwide.

I think it also goes with the sponsorship agreement holders numbers. If you set numbers, I think the community will meet those numbers for us.

The difference is basically very clear: 80% of the people we sponsor to the sponsorship agreement holders have some connection in Canada. The composition is quite different. You don't see many children. It is mostly singles or couples with one or two children. For government-sponsored refugees, you see large families with lots of children.

I think it is really hard to compare the settlement process, because you're dealing with two different target groups.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I'm going to try to get in the last three, Mr. Siksay, Madam Folco, and Mr. Karygiannis.

Let's begin, Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Could you comment on the fee structure for refugees? I know the Parkdale legal clinic in Toronto had a campaign to try to eliminate the need for refugees who are determined in Canada to pay the fee for a permanent resident application. I know if you're determined outside Canada, you don't have to pay the fee. Could you comment on the fee structure and any other issues that might arise around the fees and charges that refugees face when they come to Canada?

[Wai Young]

I think it's critical that Canada be consistent in its programs and services, and that is obviously an area in which it's not. In addition, you must know that this fee really poses an undue hardship for these refugees, many of whom are working at menial jobs, low-paying jobs, if they're working at all. So it's really a barrier to their concluding their processing. And sometimes it drags on for years because they just cannot come up with the funds. So in fact if we are calling this a humanitarian program, which I believe our refugee program is, then that is part of it. I think we should abolish that particular fee.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Have you bumped into children who arrive here on their own, as refugees, and then have problems sponsoring their parents? I know that's been problematic in the past. I wonder if you can comment on those situations, if you've ever encountered them, or if you know how prevalent they are.

[Morteza Jafarpour]

We haven't experienced that as an organization. But when the safe third country issue came, it was one of the concerns, if we were going to see high numbers of people. There is no evidence of that. We have seen high numbers of people. However, under the government assistance program, you may end up with a mother who comes with ten dependants who are not necessarily her children; they are grown up, sometimes they are even over 18, and sometimes even proving that she's their parent becomes a huge challenge.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Are there particular physical infrastructure needs that refugee- and immigrant-serving agencies are facing? I know there isn't money for that kind of stuff, or hasn't been traditionally for capital projects, but can you comment on that circumstance or that situation?

[Fariborz Birjandian]

I think historically these organizations have been community-based organizations, but because of the task and the complexity of the settlement, we've become quite professional organizations. It goes back to resources. It has always been a challenge for us. The rates of salaries are quite low among agencies. I use the Calgary scenario as an example. I have a problem with my staff going to other institutions, because they always get job offers. This is really serious. The salaries are quite low. Also, because of the physical structure, the physical capacity is also a challenge all the time. We do fundraising. We have good community support. But really the issues are quite horrendous. I will give you an example. The rent has gone up in some areas by 300% in the past ten years. When you look at our funding, it probably hasn't even doubled. So the structure is always a challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you.

Madam Folco.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

You have brought us a lot of detail from three people who have on-the-ground experience. It's extremely important for us to hear you.

I would like to ask a question that is completely apart from the subject today. I would like to ask it particularly to Mr. Jafarpour, as a medical doctor. I read in the paper today, in the Ottawa Citizen, that the Canadian government gives visas or accelerates visas to people overseas who are willing to donate an organ. In fact, if you wish to donate an organ to a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident, visa officers are advised to assess the applications.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

On a point of order, I wonder if any of this has any relevance to the refugee issue that we're studying. I wonder if the member issues a visa relative to people who are here in respect of the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

I think we'll hear the question, and we'll try to determine from there if it's relevant to refugee issues. I haven't heard the question yet.

Do you feel it's relevant to the refugee issue, Madam Folco?

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

Chair, it's relevant to what I think each person in the panel has lived through, what I suppose each has lived through, and particularly Mr. Jafarpour, who is a medical doctor. I wanted to hear from Mr. Jafarpour, with his experience as a medical doctor and particularly his experience as a former refugee and now a Canadian citizen, how he reacts to this, because he's seen both ends of the scale, if you like.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay. A point of order was on the floor. I don't believe it's a point of order, really. I'll just leave it up to the doctor whether he feels comfortable answering that question.

I'll leave it to you, sir.

[Morteza Jafarpour]

Let me answer maybe not your question, but I'll answer in this way. I came here as a refugee. I gave up my medical degree. I paid $34,000 with my family, with my sister and her three children to a smuggler to come here. And I know many people are going to give up both kidneys to take their children to safety. I don't know how true that story about these things is. I think the unfortunate part is that there are people living in such conditions that even to bring their children to safety, they're going to pay an extreme cost. Whenever there are stories like that, I always wonder what it's really going to cost for refugees to come here and who's going to benefit in that regard.

[Raymonde Folco, Liberal, Laval—Les Îles, QC]

May I ask you a personal thing? Have you known of anyone who has done this—without naming names, of course?

[Morteza Jafarpour]

I am not aware of any.