Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 29th, 2007

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

What is the status of the assessment agency?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

What is the status of the foreign credentials assessment agency? Has it been created?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

It would be totally inappropriate to create that now, given what we have and based on the consultations that we've done. That would not serve the needs of Canadians. It would be treading on provincial toes, and we have to respect provincial jurisdiction.

We are working in conjunction with the provinces and the territories and a wide range of stakeholders, because even the regulatory bodies—most of them, most of the over 400—operate within provincial jurisdiction. We've been very successful in working with them. I'm really excited about the new FCRO and what it's offering. I've had some terrifically positive feedback from stakeholders.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'm pleased that you're excited, but I can convey to you a lot of the frustration of many Canadian agencies, communities, with the last announcement that you made, because it's wrong. It reminded them of the income trust promise, where at the time, during the campaign, you made an explicit promise, and afterwards you said, “Oh, sorry. We didn't think it through and now we have to break our promise.” This is another policy that was misguided, and at the time many people said that you couldn't do that, but you made a promise to exploit the frustration, attract votes, and get political expediency.

Minister, will you apologize for that promise, and for not fulfilling that promise to many Canadians who are watching you today and still waiting for that promise to be fulfilled?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Well, if we had kept that promise, then we would not have been able to deliver what we did deliver last week—a foreign credentials referrals office that will be able to be used right around the world, one that many groups have responded to and are welcoming.

This is something that the Liberal government promised to do for years and years, and didn't. They delivered nothing in this regard.

We now have a working-in-Canada search engine that will help would-be Canadians anywhere in the world to get their credentials assessed before they even come here so that they can get the skills upgrades they need while they're still in their home country, and thereby get to work in their chosen field, in their field of training, much earlier in the process. I'm not going to apologize for allowing them and helping them to do that.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

You should apologize for breaking a promise and duplicating work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Your time is up. I'm sorry. I know the member wants to pursue it, but I have to move on to Mr. Lemay.

Mr. Lemay.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Good afternoon, Minister. I am used to the Department of Indian Affairs and the Department of Justice. We will try to be gentle.

I was surprised with the first part, Minister. If I may, Mr. Chair, I would like to go back quickly to the first part. You say you have launched an information campaign, that you have tried to reach as many people as possible, and that you have a 1-800 number. Some people live in the United States. Does the number work in that country? You can answer that question later.

Have you advertised in the United States? Some borders are very close, in some places, and people cross them. Is there a 1-800 number in the United States and elsewhere in the world?

My second question relates to me directly, Minister. I have written to you and I am very pleased to see you today. Once immigrants arrive in Canada, whether they be doctors who settle in remote areas, or butchers or bakers in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, my riding, they have to go, for security reasons, and meet with someone in your Department in Ottawa, in Gatineau or in Montreal. I could give you names, if you want.

Since there are doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists and nurses in remote regions who are immigrants, they have to close their offices and they cannot work their shifts in the hospitals. That is what is happening in regions like Abitibi-Témiscamingue.

Could your officials go into remote areas, if only once a month, to do this checking? In fact, they could do all this checking. Professors at the Université du Québec in Abitibi-Témiscamingue have to come here. They tell me that they lose three days for a five-minute meeting, simply to be sure that they are indeed the same people.

I hope that you have enough time to answer my questions.

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you.

We launched the information campaign in Canada mainly because most of the people who are asking for information are here.

It's very difficult to set up an international helpline. We simply don't have the resources.

We recognize your very valid point that a number of people have moved to the United States and may have lost their citizenship; they may be part of the border-baby class. We have made sure that our consulates and embassies there are aware of this situation. They're scattered across the United States. They can help people or direct them to the CIC website, where there is information on how to contact us. There is also information on the website to help them. We've tried to make it as easy as possible for these individuals.

Even if we were to advertise in every newspaper in the United States, if it weren't cost-prohibitive, would the right people read the right page in the right newspaper? We are deploying all the resources we reasonably can to identify these people and certainly help them.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Can you answer my second question?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I am going to ask the Deputy Minister to answer it.

[Richard Fadden, Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration]

You have drawn our attention to a real problem. In recent decades, the federal government has closed a number of local offices throughout the country for economic reasons, and this causes us major difficulties. We are in the process of examining two or three possibilities to alleviate these difficulties.

First, we could use the services of Service Canada, which has offices that are much more dispersed around the country than immigration offices. Second, our officers already go into remote areas for citizenship reasons. We are examining the possibility of doing it more often. Third, we are examining the possibility of using technology, but we are making no promises there. For security reasons, it really is important that we hand our documents to the person named.

You are right that there is a problem, and we are in the process of trying to solve it.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I prefer the first two possibilities, for security reasons. I could even lend you my constituency office, if you want. To us, the situation in remote areas is critical. Minister, Deputy Minister, we have lost 44 landed immigrants to the big centres because they lost three days travelling to the big centres.

I want to come back to the first part, when you were talking about information. We are talking about people who are 60 and over, who were born before 1947. They are not very computer-literate, and that poses a problem. Could Canadian embassies around the world inform these "Canadians" that they are at risk of losing their citizenship?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Our priority at present is to target people who have spent most of their life in Canada, who have very strong ties and who are still living here.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, on the question of the estimates and the various issues related to that, one issue that's been of great concern to the committee has been the crisis at the IRB.

We're very concerned that around one-third of the positions at the IRB have been unfilled. The backlog of cases facing the IRB is increasing at about 1,000 cases a month. After some valiant efforts were made to reduce a huge backlog that existed in previous years at the IRB, it finally seemed to come under some control. But it now seems to have increased from about 19,000 up to 25,000, and it's going up by about 1,000 cases a month.

I notice in the estimates that there's actually a decrease of $4 million in money for the IRB. Does the savings come from the fact that there are so many vacancies and paycheques are therefore not going out?

What is your intention and the department's intention to solve this crisis? It directly affects so many people, people who have come to Canada because their lives are in danger or Canadians who have had problems sponsoring a relative or a family member and have taken it to an appeal. Minister, what's the plan to solve this very serious crisis?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Well, you're right that it is a very serious situation. We want to deal with the refugees as quickly as possible. For starters, it's only fair to them, and it's why we are working to increase the number of sitting members.

It is a long process. We want to make sure we have the right individuals in these positions. There's no question that it's a very challenging job. It takes someone with special skills to be able to evaluate the situation and determine the legitimacy of the claim.

As you're aware, our refugee system is one that is much sought after, shall we say. Unfortunately, there are people who come here, apply for refugee status to get five years in Canada, and they then have to deal with the reality. These people recognize they are not legitimate refugees, but it's worth a shot, in their minds. We need people who can identify these people along the way to make sure the system isn't abused. But quite frankly, not everybody wants to do the job.

We have undertaken an extensive search for new candidates. We have raised the standards of these individuals. If they write the test, which they are required to do, they must actually pass it. It weeds out quite a few people. We are proceeding to fill those positions as quickly as we possibly can.

We're busy cutting the other backlog, and we don't want to see this one grow. It's not the way we manage things.

In terms of the cuts, it's unrelated. About $4.5 million of the decline is due to temporary funding that has been sunsetted.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, on your criticism of the inability of people to make the right determinations, is that why people are not being reappointed to the IRB?

The former chair says the IRB is in danger of losing 300 years of experience, in terms of people who know how to adjudicate a refugee claim and have been doing so for many years. Since they're not being reappointed, that experience is being lost.

I heard you say you need the right people to make those claims. Is it your belief that those folks who are not being reappointed are incompetent and that's why they're not being reappointed?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

No. There are some individuals who will be reappointed. There are others who chose not to be reappointed.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

But for the people who aren't being reappointed and are ready to be reappointed, are you saying they were somehow incompetent and failed a review of competency?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm not going to make any blanket statements about them, because each case is unique. I am saying we want to make sure we have the right people there. When there are opportunities to fill those positions with the appropriate people, we're going to do it as quickly as possible.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, one of the programs that was recently announced was a program to encourage permanent residence applications from foreign students studying in Canada and temporary foreign workers. I believe it was suggested that up to 25,000 applications would be received a year and the group of applications would come from targets already announced.

Minister, am I correct in assuming that it means the overall number of places available in all the other categories is thereby reduced by 25,000?

I think the high end for the target for this coming year was going to be 265,000. It would mean the high end would really be 240,000 for people who come as economic immigrants, people who have made family reunification applications, and refugees and people needing protection? Because of this new announcement, does it mean there are actually 25,000 fewer places that are available to those kinds of applications or those kinds of applicants?

[Diane Finley, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

In total, the same number is still available; it's the streams through which they can apply that are different. Industry has told us—in fact industry has been screaming at us—to help them get new people in, temporary foreign workers. They need people with Canadian experience. They need people who are used to Canada.

One of the several tools we've put in place is to make it possible for students, who are now allowed to work off-campus for up to 20 hours a week, to apply from within the country. That's the fastest means for employers to get Canadian experience, new talent, and people who are willing to stay here.

A project that I worked on a number of years ago indicated that most students prefer to stay where they graduate. If we can attract foreign students potentially getting Canadian work experience and being accredited to Canadian standards while they're learning the technology, I think it behoves us to try to build on that experience and build on those attachments they're creating to Canada to help out industry.