Evidence of meeting #11 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-37.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Erl Kish  Dominion Vice-President, Royal Canadian Legion
Pierre Allard  Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Chaplin
Mark Davidson  Director, Legislation and Program Policy, Citizenship Branch, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

The meeting will come to order.

I want to welcome the witnesses here today in consideration of Bill C-37.

As you can see from the agenda, we have two panels. We have the departmental officials first....

Mr. Telegdi, you have a point of order?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Telegdi Liberal Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Yes. I'm wondering if we could hear from the veterans first, if they're all here.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Sure.

Are the veterans prepared to go first? Okay.

On behalf of the committee, I would invite you to come to the table, please.

I want to welcome the two members from the Royal Canadian Legion: Mr. Pierre Allard, service bureau director, dominion command; and Mr. Erl Kish, dominion vice-president.

Welcome, gentlemen. I don't know if you've been here before, but generally we try to give the presenters about 10 minutes for their comments. Then the individuals from the committee make comments or ask questions of the presenters.

February 11th, 2008 / 3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dave Batters Conservative Palliser, SK

So they would split the 10 minutes, correct?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Sure. Well, it's however they want to do it.

I would invite you, when you are ready, to make your comments. Then we'll hear from committee members. But do take your time.

You'll present first, Mr. Kish? Okay, thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Erl Kish Dominion Vice-President, Royal Canadian Legion

Thank you so much, Comrade Chairman. It's a pleasure to be here.

On behalf of our dominion president, Comrade Jack Frost, first I would like to thank you very much for inviting the Legion to appear before you today on this very important issue of lost Canadians. This is indeed our second opportunity to appear at your committee, as we were here previously on March 19, 2007. It is always a pleasure to work on a common cause.

I must admit that we are wondering why this issue has not yet been resolved and why timely action seems to be so difficult to orchestrate. To continue to deny citizenship to war brides and offspring of Canadian Forces veterans is objectionable. To be as constructive as we can be in what appears to be a highly politicized environment, we see two issues as obstacles to a quick resolution. These are concerns related to second-generation offspring born abroad to Canadian citizens and concerns on actual numbers that may be affected. We think both these issues can be addressed without delay in the passing of Bill C-37 on an urgent basis.

The Legion often appears at parliamentary and Senate committees responsible for the veterans portfolio. We remain truly impressed with the non-partisan approach that is evident in these committees. We remain convinced that this same non-partisan approach can resolve the issue at hand.

We were very pleased with the recommendations contained in your report. Allow me to refer to some of these recommendations: (a) rules for determining who is a citizen should be few, and citizenship should be permanent status; (b) people need to be able to rely on the certainty of their citizenship; (c) anyone who was born in Canada at any time should be deemed a Canadian citizen retroactive to birth; (d) anyone who was born abroad at any time to a Canadian mother or to a Canadian father, if he/she is first generation born abroad, should also be deemed a Canadian citizen; and (e) Citizenship and Immigration should reassess whether there is any pressing or substantial reason for continuing not to recognize the DND 419 as proof of Canadian citizenship. The registration of birth abroad should be recognized as proof of Canadian citizenship.

The committee also recommended that the minister use his discretionary power under the present Citizenship Act to implement the above recommendations before the bill is drafted.

When we did our review of Bill C-37 and looked at the proposed backgrounder and Qs and As, we were confident that resolution was around the corner, yet here we are today. This brings us to what we see as simple but timely solutions that require no modification to Bill C-37 but a strong resolve to move forward in a non-partisan approach.

On the issue of second-generation Canadians born abroad, one of the previous witnesses alluded to what we think is a bona fide requirement to give proof of attachment to Canada. There is a simple measure already in place that allows an immigrant born abroad to serve in the Canadian Forces and be fast-tracked in his or her application for Canadian citizenship. That is a simple but meaningful proof of attachment and willingness to serve one's country. This process requires no amendment to Bill C-37.

As for the numbers, this issue may be an important factor; however, it is not a showstopper. Surely it should not be seen as an impediment to timely passage of Bill C-37.

Once again, the Royal Canadian Legion feels very strongly that passage of Bill C-37 is an urgent priority that should be embraced by all the members of this committee. As one of the members of this committee has said so eloquently, there have been enough studies and reports on this issue. What is needed is a cooperative approach that will bring resolution once and for all before those affected simply pass away.

I thank you, Comrade Chairman, for your time.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you, Mr. Kish.

Mr. Allard.

3:40 p.m.

Pierre Allard Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

On behalf of our Dominion President, Comrade Jack Frost, I would like to thank you very much for inviting the Legion to appear before you today on this very important issue of the “Lost Canadians”. This is, indeed, our second opportunity to appear at your committee, as we were here previously on March 19, 2007. It is always a pleasure to work on a common cause.

I must admit that we are wondering why this issue has not yet been resolved, and why timely action seems to be so difficult to orchestrate. To continue to deny citizenship to war brides and the offspring of Canadian Forces veterans is objectionable. In order to be as constructive as we can be, in what appears to be a highly politicized environment, there appear to be two issues that are seen as obstacles to a quick resolution. These are: concerns related to the second generation born abroad to a Canadian mother or father; and, concerns on actual numbers that may be affected.

We think that both of these issues can be addressed on an urgent basis, without delaying the passage of Bill C-37. The Legion often appears at parliamentary and Senate committees responsible for the Veterans portfolio. We remain truly impressed with the non-partisan approach that is evident in those committees. We remain convinced that this same non-partisan approach can resolve the issue at hand.

We were very pleased with the recommendation contained in your report. Allow me to refer to some of those recommendations.

Rules for determining who is a citizen should be few and citizenship should be a permanent status. People need to be able to rely on the certainty of their citizenship. Anyone who was born in Canada at any time, retroactive to birth, should be deemed a Canadian citizen. Anyone who was born abroad at any time to a Canadian mother or to a Canadian father, is he/she is a first generation born abroad, should also be deemed a Canadian citizen. Citizenship and Immigration should reassess whether there is any pressing or substantial reason for continuing not to recognize the DND 419 form as proof of Canadian citizenship. The registration of birth abroad should be recognized as proof of Canadian citizenship.

The Committee also recommended that the Minister use her discretionary power under the present Citizenship Act to implement the above recommendations before the bill is drafted.

When we did our review of Bill C-37, and looked at the proposed backgrounder and Q&As, we were confident that a resolution was around the corner. Yet, here we are today. Which brings us to what we see as simple but timely solutions that require no modification to Bill C-37, but a strong resolve to move forward based on a non-partisan approach.

On the issue of the second generation born abroad, one of the previous witnesses alluded to what we think is a bona fide requirement to give proof of one's attachment to Canada. There is a simple measure already in place that allows an immigrant born abroad to serve in the Canadian Forces and have his or her application for Canadian citizenship fastracked. That is a simple but meaningful proof of attachment and a willingness to serve one's country. This process requires no amendment to Bill C-37.

As for the numbers, this may be an important factor. However, it is not a showstopper. Surely it should not be seen as an impediment to timely passage of Bill C-37.

Once again, the Royal Canadian Legion feels very strongly that passage of Bill C-37 is an urgent priority that should be embraced by all the members of this Committee. As one of the members of this Committee has said so eloquently, there have been enough studies and enough reports on this issue. What is needed now is a cooperative approach that will bring resolution, once and for all, before those that are affected simply pass away.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Norman Doyle

Thank you.

We will now go to committee members for questions.

I will go to Mr. Karygiannis first, and then to Mr. St-Cyr.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

I want to thank you both for coming here, and all of your members. And I also want to acknowledge the work that you've done in order for us to be able to be here today. If it weren't for the vets and for the sacrifices you made, and your wives and children, we wouldn't have a democracy today and we wouldn't be here.

I'm going to give you some figures that I want you to please consider and also take back to your membership. The department finally gave us some figures on the weekend. It reads as follows: between 1947 and 1977, 114,000 registrations of birth abroad certificates were issued. So between 1947 and 1977, we have 114,000--in 30 years.

And then the department gave us the figures from 1982 to 2007, although we asked for 1977 onwards, and they didn't come up with some numbers. What they've given us is that between 1982 and today, 368,520 Canadians were born abroad. When they were asked for second generation, they only gave us 2006, and that was 2,412 people, Canadian citizens, born abroad.

I also want to thank you for having this in your statements. It says, “Anyone who was born abroad at any time to a Canadian mother or to a Canadian father, if he/she is a first generation born abroad, should also be deemed a Canadian citizen”. I'm not sure if you mean the second generation or not, but I want to thank you.

Now, what happens if you take the numbers of second generation between 1977 and today, 1982 to 1989, is that there were 56,000 people born abroad. From 1990 to 1999, 121,144 were born aboard. And here's the real kicker, folks, from 2000 to 2007, 187,260. And if you were to extrapolate and take the mean--because in my former life as an industrial engineer, I did statistics coming out of the ears--per year, from 1982 to 1989, 7,000 Canadians were born abroad; from 1990 to 1999, per year, 10,095 born abroad; from 2000 to 2007, 26,751 born abroad. If you forecast that into 2010, that will hit about 56,000 first-generation Canadians born abroad.

So if you take those numbers--and I'm certainly going to pass this graph around to you--by 2020 we might have close to a million first generation born abroad. Gentlemen, that's 10 times as many Canadians as born abroad between 1947 to 1977.

If you take the number of second generation born abroad in 2006, that was 2,412. And if you extrapolate that to the same degree, you're going to have about 5,000-plus in 2010 to 2020 of second generation born abroad.

If my daughter, first generation born abroad, were to get married to somebody who's not a Canadian citizen and they're stationed in the gulf.... In the gulf, as you pretty well know, if you are somebody who was born there, you're stateless. So my grandchild, this baby, will be stateless if he/she is born abroad. This child, that baby, has nowhere to go if we have an emergency. And if you, the forces, today's people, go in to take us out, you will say to the mother, “Yes, you're a Canadian citizen, please come with us”. You will say to her, “I'm sorry, your baby can't come”. But let's say that by mistake you do take the baby and there's something wrong with the baby, the baby is not born perfect, and the baby comes to Canada, that child, my grandchild, the person you fought so hard for, will have absolutely no coverage of health care or anything in Canada.

Yes, I've known people say to me, “But your daughter can sponsor her child into Canada and she can do this until that child is 22 years old.” So I ask you, who have fought so hard for this country and with all the fights that you have done, why should my daughter, who has lived all her life in this country, have to sponsor her child into Canada?

Please, I want you to consider those numbers, and if you have something to enlighten me, something to tell me, as a father, and possibly a grandfather of the grandkid who will be born abroad tomorrow, if my daughter is working out there, if you can convince me that the fight you fought for this country....

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

My head is spinning listening to the numbers, I must admit, so I will have to sit down and look at these numbers. If I understand correctly, you're saying that projecting the number of second generation born aboard, we can anticipate--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

First generation born abroad in the—

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

I'm saying second generation, about 10,000 or so, by 2010.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

That's per year, sir, 2010 to 2020.

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

Per year?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Per year.

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

Okay. Well, you've had 2,412 since 2006—

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Right now, the number for 2007, first generation born abroad, is 26,000.

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

That said, what we are really concerned about is indeed first generation born abroad, in the context that there are options for people who are second generation born abroad. I would look at it from a contextual approach in terms of what is done in other countries, what is done in France, what is done in the U.K., the U.S., and these other countries. Do they recognize second generation born abroad?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

I've heard that they don't, but I can tell you of one country that I know of, probably the cradle of democracy, Greece—

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

Greece does.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

Fifth and sixth generation born abroad.

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Karygiannis Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

After everything falls in shit in the Soviet Union, they are able to go back to Greece. With everything fallen apart in the Soviet Union, the people who had left are able to go back and have security.

3:50 p.m.

Service Bureau Director, Dominion Command, Royal Canadian Legion

Pierre Allard

I think there are options for people who are second generation born abroad. I personally think we have to adopt a standard that is common to other measures that are taken in other countries, and I would like to have time to consider the numbers.