Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 31st, 2008

[David Fairey]

Absolutely.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

With the exception of the 24 out of 36. There are problems with the live-in caregivers. I don't want to say that it's a perfect program; it needs to be changed somewhat.

[Wayne Peppard]

If I may comment on the CEC, the experience program, we were part of the meeting with Ottawa when they came here to talk about that. We gave qualified support for it. We do recognize that that is where we should be going, and we believe very strongly that if people are good enough to come to Canada to work here, they should be able to bring their families and be permanent residents, if that's what they choose to do.

Secondly, the issue we have with the Canadian experience program right now is that it makes those employees even more vulnerable, because if they are working under conditions currently where the employer holds it over them that they can terminate them--and that goes back to whether or not they're indentured to an employer--this just adds another layer to that intimidation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Thank you, Ms. Chow.

We will wind up this panel with the last seven minutes going to Ms. Grewal.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, let me thank each and every one of you for taking the time to come here, and thank you so much for your presentations. Certainly we have learned a lot from you.

All of us are here to make the system more efficient and effective, so that it is more accessible for people coming into this country. There is a shortage of workers, and that should be addressed.

The shortage is in various industries, such as construction, farm work, and hospitality, mostly. Some temporary workers are abused and they're vulnerable, as Mr. Peppard said.

Mr. Peppard, my question is very simple. Please, could you tell us what means are in place to reduce the vulnerability of those potential foreign workers to human traffickers, and are these means sufficient for them? Could you please elaborate on that?

[Wayne Peppard]

Well, certainly, we wouldn't be here if they were sufficient. We've got serious cases that have been brought before us.

Part of the problem is with that aspect of the labour broker side of it. I call them the slave traders. They don't bring them in ships any more; they bring them in airplanes. But what they're doing is bringing people here in a global market, and we have to recognize that it is that global market. We can create any kind of legislation here in Canada or in a province or in a municipality that we want, but influencing other countries, the host countries, is a serious concern for us. We have asked to sign on to the human rights convention as well—or ratify it, because we have signed on and we just have not ratified it—because we believe those kinds of agreements that are made between countries right now have to hold these rights really imperative for workers and for the employers.

As an example, part of the discussion we had this morning dealt with the need to write into those agreements what the responsibilities of the Canadian government are and what the responsibilities of the host government are. If there is a broker or a contractor who is operating with people from another country and they violate, then what happens to them in that other country as well? It's not just here, because we can legislate and we can act here, but we have to make those connections.

As I said earlier, we've got one contractor right now who is intricately linked with the broker and the broker is intricately linked with the loan shark company in the country of origin, but we can't get that information to lay it down on the table and say this is what it is, because we have to access the other country and we can't do that.

So there are problems inherent with making sure not just that we have everything ready here and that everything is enforceable, but also that it is in the other country. So those agreements are very important, and we would hope that these kinds of issues would be brought up within those agreements, to ensure that everybody is treated correctly.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

So what steps can the federal government take to reduce all this? Could you tell us?

[Wayne Peppard]

I think of the three issues we mentioned earlier, the issue of vulnerability and changing the visa and the permit process so it's not linked to the employer is the biggest one of them all, because it really does indenture the worker and it makes the worker different from other Canadians

A point well taken is that all workers should be treated the same way in Canada. Why should the temporary foreign worker not be able to move between employers when the Canadian worker can?

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

You have three minutes.

[Nina Grewal, Conservative, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll pass my time to Mr. Komarnicki.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay. Mr. Komarnicki.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I have a few questions.

First of all, I gather from what you're saying that you'd like to see some national standards that would be sort of a minimum basis when we talk about temporary foreign workers. Presently, they're provincially regulated and they vary from province to province. There might be some basic fundamental baselines that you'd like to see incorporated across the country. Is that correct?

[Wayne Peppard]

Absolutely. In our industry, we call it the “red seal”. It's those trades and occupations that are red-seal qualified.

As I said earlier, for somebody who is invited to work in Canada first and then the province, we need to enforce those national standards for the credential recognition.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Secondly, obviously we've heard things from the labour perspective, from your own point of view as well as Mr. Fairey's, but do you see a place within your organization, the labour movement, or the union movement where you would have a section specifically dealing with advocating on behalf of temporary foreign workers? Do you see yourself as having a role in that regard or not?

[Wayne Peppard]

I certainly do see us as having a role. I think what we would be calling for is a partnership between the federal government, the provincial government, and, I would suggest, stakeholder groups in setting up, if we could, this orientation and advocacy program. I think we could all work together on that.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

I'm thinking about the live-in caregiver program. You might be familiar with that. Obviously there's some pre-counselling with respect to what the rights there might be in terms of the province you might enter into. It talks a little about what advocacy groups are available out there. It talks about language, because there might be some language issues.

Do you see that kind of concept that is already working in the live-in caregiver program extended beyond to those who might be coming in?

[Wayne Peppard]

Absolutely.

Currently, I can speak for our own organization. We work with the Construction Sector Council on foreign credential recognition, mentoring, and all kinds of programs that we're using right now. I believe there are opportunities on a nationwide basis to implement this kind of stuff.

The funding is there. I know there's funding available.

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

You mentioned credentialling. I suppose I should mention that we have opened a foreign credential referral office. I know there are over 400 different credentialling agencies. It's quite a maze, not to mention what the particular agency does.

Do you see the opening of the Service Canada offices, 320 of them across the country, as a good first step towards that whole process of helping people through the maze of credentialling?

[Wayne Peppard]

I certainly do. I am a federalist. I do believe there has to be a strong national program in place. That is where it has to start. I think we have to work in partnership with provinces in delivering, and the stakeholders.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

We have about two minutes left, and Mr. Telegdi wants a minute. Did you have something further?

[Ed Komarnicki, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

It can keep.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Norman Doyle]

Okay.

We're looking at one-minute stuff here again. We'll give one minute to Mr. Telegdi and to Mr. Carrier.

[Andrew Telegdi, Liberal, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

I've sat on this committee for 10 years. I have been hearing the same problems come along for some years. I've often said what you have to do is, when somebody comes in, they can work for numerous employers. Tying them to a single employer is certainly the wrong way to go.

I think maybe we can have a solution to this. A lot of these folks don't speak the language and they need help in all those areas. Expecting government to do all of this is really difficult.

Every temporary foreign worker pays into UI and they get absolutely nothing out of it. If we stopped making them pay UI and have that be a union due, I think the natural advocates on behalf of rights, which are the unions, would be able to assist the temporary foreign workers in making sure their rights are respected. This is what we really need. You're not going to get enough inspectors at the provincial level unless there are some people who can deal with their rights and present the case to the regulating bodies.

Could I get a comment from both of you on that?

[Wayne Peppard]

On the inspection side, we do not need to hire inspectors. What we need is a good system in place. In the compliance team model, what we're saying is that we just spot-check; you put it out there that somebody can be caught.

Usually when they're cheating on one, they're cheating on a whole bunch of them. If they're cheating on their taxes, they're cheating on the WCB, they're cheating on their workers, and so on.