Evidence of meeting #18 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was caregivers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Tristan Downe-Dewdney  Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good morning. This is eighteenth meeting of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration, on Tuesday, May 26, 2009. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), are the study of ghost consultants and migrant workers.

We have one guest, one witness, this morning from nine until ten. From the Canadian Caregivers Association, we have Mr. Tristan Downe-Dewdney.

On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for coming, sir. We normally give witnesses up to ten minutes to make presentations, and then the different caucuses will have rounds of questions for you. You are free to make a statement if you wish, for up to ten minutes.

Thank you for coming, sir.

9:05 a.m.

Tristan Downe-Dewdney Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Thank you very much.

First, I would like to extend my thanks to the committee for having me here today as a representative of the Canadian Caregivers Association. It has been a pleasure to read many of your comments in the press over the past few months as attention has been increasingly drawn to the plight of many live-in caregivers in Canada.

Though there have been very real political slants to some of the discussions Canadians have been having in the public forum, I remain encouraged by the prospect that very real solutions may be delivered for the long-standing problems that confront caregivers and the families who employ them.

The CCA, the Canadian Caregivers Association, stands by the many other groups, organizations, and advocates who would like to see improvements in the system. The CCA has a number of ideas that have emerged from the experiences of its members and the community it serves. Some of these ideas may be new to the committee. Others, as I'm sure you've heard in the past few weeks, may be a bit of a rehash, but I'd like to reinforce those that we agree with.

It has been the focus of the CCA, in examining the topic of policy, to explore the root causes of today's problems and to ask the “why” question. As the committee is likely well aware, the draw of the live-in caregiver program is the possibility of becoming a Canadian citizen, in addition to the internationally significant economics of global remittances. The foundation of the program is accessing a labour force that is chasing a vision of a better life both for themselves and for their families. These are real people and they are exposed to very real problems.

In addressing what kinds of changes are being made to the system, there are obviously a lot of ideas out there. The CCA, in its experience with the live-in caregiver program, is better versed in the legislation around that, so I'm going to address the questions of legislation on the live-in caregiver program.

I know there are other ideas, such as granting landed status right away, and a lot of others. I think a lot of them have a lot of merit, but just addressing the live-in caregiver program for the moment delivers, I think, some very quick solutions to some very major problems: problems such as abuse, families left without child care, and caregivers who sometimes are left without homes, are very tight for money, and are forced into very awkward positions.

Why do these cases occur? We would say that they occur because of a problem with waiting times and inadequate oversight. I'll start by touching on the question of waiting times.

In the Philippines, it can take as long as two years to get all the permits and paperwork required to come to Canada for the live-in caregiver program. Within Canada, caregivers who change employers under the live-in caregiver program can wait as long as six months for all the paperwork to be completed and to start their new employment. This has a major impact on families in terms of the extraordinary work-related problems that can emerge. Often these cases are seen in rural areas where there are no other child care options, and families are really hampered by these wait times.

But the biggest impact by far is on the caregivers, who are looking to get permanent residency. As I'm sure many of you are aware, it's required that caregivers complete 24 months of full-time employment--and that's registered, with all the paperwork done--over the first three years in order to be eligible for permanent residency.

When they change families and change employers, getting their PR status is put at risk. The caregivers often feel that they have to stay with their employers regardless of whether or not they're happy in that home. Too many transitions add up to significant waiting periods, and then they lose that option of getting the 24 months of full-time work within the first three years.

This can happen for any number of reasons. If a caregiver is waiting two years to come to Canada, an elderly employer might not be here when they get here, or may not be here shortly after they get here. There are also cases, obviously, of abusive employers, where caregivers feel they have to move right away or very quickly. Again, there are illegal working conditions in some homes, and caregivers feel they need to leave those situations.

There are a lot of reasons why caregivers may change employers. If they do this once, then they're looking at the possibility that maybe they can't do this a second time. They feel vulnerable and exposed because of this condition. They feel pressure, of course, to stay with families who might not be serving their better interests. Or they're left in limbo.

In terms of solutions, I personally think a very effective solution would be to reduce the waiting times for those permits--whether it's abroad, let's say in the Philippines--to cut it down from what can be a two-year waiting period to something more manageable. Perhaps it can be something standardized with the visa offices in, say, Austria, where it can be two months or less. It's very fast and very effective. If we were to standardize it, two weeks to two months might be a better waiting time.

Centralizing the processing of these applications and visas from overseas visa offices would also probably be quite effective, both in terms of cutting down on the waiting times and in terms of making sure that standards are even across the board.

I've certainly heard of cases where, for instance, a caregiver and their friend go to the consulate in Beijing. One has better English and goes second, but the visa officer has changed between their interviews, so the one with the better English is denied based on her English abilities, while the one before her, who acknowledges that her skills aren't as good, has been accepted. If there's some way these sorts of problems can be overcome, I think that would be significant in helping many caregivers.

With regard to oversight and accountability, I know there's been talk about the idea of a blacklist for rogue agencies, or bad placement officers and agencies. The blacklist is a nice idea. I would sooner look to a white list as a solution, though. The aim would be to deal with bad agents, ghost agents, and these sorts of things. And these are people who are quite capable of rebranding, popping up under a new name, or shifting ownership. They often have fairly complex networks. The idea of having a white list is to have an agency or agent qualify themselves and then be registered to do business. I know Manitoba is starting a program like that. I think that's perhaps a better way to go, and it will provide more oversight in that regard.

In terms of licensing, there's the idea of maybe setting up a definition of what a bad agency is and what a good agency is. I know there's a lot of talk about stopping bad agencies, but it would be great if there was a very clear definition of what sort of agency would be approved and what wouldn't be, what the conditions are for removing a licence, and that sort of thing.

In terms of setting the standards for agencies, we have a few ideas. The CCA suggested that maybe having the association of a CSIC member who would oversee all of the files might provide some oversight, since there are oversight mechanisms already in place for CSIC. Or, for instance, we could have a payroll rather than it just being somebody who's operating out of their home and who's shut down after they've brought their five people from wherever into Canada, and before they're caught doing some sort of bad business. We are also looking into the possibility of having human relations professionals involved. After all, these are families who are getting employees, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure that these placements are suitable in the first place.

Another idea that's appealing to the CCA is the idea of tracking the work done. We could keep track of employers, firings, and caregivers who left early, just so a history could be established for many of these families. There are cases of caregivers who go to a home and there's been abuse there in the past, but they don't know. The government hasn't denied them a labour market opinion letter or anything like that. It's being able to say that this is your third caregiver and we can't give you another because there's been this clear history of reports of abuse. They could investigate that sort of thing.

Lastly, I think the idea of educating is a great idea. Caregivers definitely need to have a stronger sense of what their rights are before coming to Canada. There is a very real culture shock that many of them experience in coming here. Many of them have already worked abroad in other countries, be it as an au pair in Europe or elsewhere.

Some of the countries they come from also have very high official standards, but what they experience there may not live up to those standards. They may come to Canada thinking that it says they are protected on the books, but they don't trust the system to protect them. It would be great if they could be shown that government will stand up for their rights and that there are the mechanisms readily accessible to help them with that.

The other idea is to have checkups. I know the report put out by the committee included the idea of a checkup with an NGO after three months in Canada. I think that's an excellent idea. My only contribution would be that the CCA suggests it be ongoing. Of course caregivers changing homes is one of the big problems, and they're losing time that way. If their status could be checked on regularly and if they have complaints about an employer, they could voice those early and that could be kept track of.

When caregivers come to authorities or look back on a placement and say things were wrong there, there would be a record of that, and throughout the whole process of their placement an independent body could list the resources available to them, say they can help, this is where they can go.

And of course in Toronto or in Ottawa or in other major cities there may be resource centres where they can go, but in rural areas, for instance, there might not be a walk-in place and it might be good to have some sort of network.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Perhaps you can wind up, sir, to allow time for questions from the committee members.

9:15 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

Absolutely.

I'll just say in closing that the CCA is hopeful about the future. We're looking at the question of freeing the caregivers from their restraints, both perceived and real, and addressing the question of waiting times, oversight, and education.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bevilacqua.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

First, I would like to thank you for your presentation, particularly the tone and substance, as we deal with important issues related to caregiver reform.

I took a few notes while you were speaking. If you got to design the ideal program--in other words, if you were sitting in my seat for a second and you had some influence over the members of Parliament here and the legislative process--what would be the cornerstones of your reform?

9:15 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

The cornerstones would be a white list and a significant reduction in waiting times, so caregivers can feel they have the mobility they need when they need to change employers, to provide a sense of liberation from conditions that might be abusive.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

So your ideal program would be those two major points?

9:20 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Could you expand on the waiting times issue and types of resources? Do you think the resources should be increased in that area?

9:20 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

I think they should be. I know different visa offices around the world have different standards, but waiting times are a real problem. If somebody's in the Philippines and is being told it's going to take two years to come to Canada, imagine what a family's being told when they say they need a caregiver tomorrow and an agent says the Philippines is two years. People don't look for today's child care two years in advance; nor do people who need immediate care for elderly relatives say they'll start a two-year process now.

In the rarest case you may find an employer who hires a caregiver for a two-year contract who has the foresight to start planning for when that contract comes to an end. But when you say it takes two years, and caregivers are aware of that, it leaves the door open for rogue agencies or rogue agents to use false employers because suddenly they become the ones who offer the ability to come to Canada in a way that legitimate agents and agencies cannot.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

While we're on that point, I think it's always very important to strike the balance in society between rights and responsibilities of individuals. I was wondering if you could share your point of view with the committee on the rights and responsibilities of employer and employee and where you feel they're at.

9:20 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

I feel a lot on the books is quite good. There are a lot of immigration-related laws, the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, things that could be used to protect more people. I feel that as caregivers and families are exposed to the system the burden is largely on the caregivers to perform to the employer's standards. You can sometimes have three-way bad relationships where the agency brought them to Canada with false documents, a family hired them once they got here without the documentation being done, and the caregiver's working illegally in the home. So it's failing at every level in those cases.

But I think a lot of attention needs to be given more to the agents and families, in terms of making sure they're following the law. I think a lot of caregivers have a lot of respect for the program and are often incredibly sensitive to Canadian law because they're looking at permanent residency down the road and they're very sensitive to not breaking the rules. That said, some may, but mechanisms can be put in place to track employment.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

You've raised some very important issues in your presentation, and I want to thank you for that. I want to also know from you, since you seem to have reached a very thoughtful analysis of this issue and certainly valid points of view on it, have you ever been approached by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration to hear these points? Has he consulted with you?

9:20 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

I've been in touch with his office and we attended an event on the 25th of last month, a town hall open meeting.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Have you had any further meetings with the minister?

9:20 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

No, nothing more significant than that.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Monsieur Paillé.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here.

My questions are not connected.

To start, you mentioned a white list. I want to know if you were talking about agencies outside Canada that hire immigrants.

9:20 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

No, I was referring to agents and agencies within Canada. However many memorandums of understanding there may be with Canada and another country, ultimately there's usually someone on the ground in Canada who's part of that relationship. If somebody overseas is breaking the rules, there's usually a benefactor in Canada. So being able to have a white list for the Canadian recruiters I think would probably be the most effective step that could be taken.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

You say that, in some cases, the waiting time is about two years. Can you explain that? Why is it so long?

9:25 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

What I've heard suggested is that it's a question of resources at the Manila office. I've heard that it's completely packed and they have no room for anybody else to process the cases. I can't say I've been there personally to see if that's true, but otherwise it would suggest to me that the resources haven't been allocated to take care of either that backlog or slow processing procedure.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Pascal-Pierre Paillé Bloc Louis-Hébert, QC

On another subject, we have heard other witnesses before you and I understood from their testimonies that some agencies outside Canada sometimes demanded money to have these immigrants come here.

Have you also heard stories like that, that they had to pay to be admitted in this program?

9:25 a.m.

Spokesperson, Canadian Live-In Caregivers Association

Tristan Downe-Dewdney

I'm sorry, maybe you could clarify. Do you mean in terms of money that they're required to pay to an agent, or in terms of a certain amount of money they need to have to be accepted into the program?