Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 26th, 2009

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

No, I mean they have to give money to these agencies to be admissible. For example, we may suppose that several persons want to join this program and that some agencies outside Canada take advantage of the situation to make some money.

Have you ever witnessed that type of situation?

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

No. Certainly I think most agents and agencies usually have some sort of fee structure in place. There are a few that charge exclusively the employer, but if you call most agencies, I think they would be very clear in saying that they do have a fee structure. Those vary radically from minor fees of under $1,000 to ones.... I haven't heard of them in person, but the Toronto Star people said it could go as high as $10,000. If you call the agencies, they'll tell you that there are fees.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Staying on this money issue, according to other witnesses, some immigrants arriving in Canada do not have the necessary documents to open a bank account. Some employers pay them in cash because of that.

Have you ever witnessed this practice?

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

I wouldn't say it's common, but I certainly have heard of it. The trick is making sure that all the taxes are filed and there's a proper record kept, but I've certainly heard of cases where people are paid cash for the services, yes.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

How much time have I left?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have a minute.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

O.K.

A last question. I would like to come back to waiting times. You say it takes about two months. What would be the optimum waiting time, one that would be acceptable for everybody — for Canada as well as for the immigrant who wants to work here —, one that would speed up the process and at the same time would allow for some control of the files when the immigrant arrives here? What would be your suggestion?

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

I would say that a wait time of under two months would be appropriate. When a family wants somebody today, they can be talked to and they'll say, well, maybe two months are reasonable. There are families that hire caregivers from abroad. They do hire from South America, from Europe. Some of those countries take weeks or months. I'd say the threshold is when you're getting past 60 days. Then they're asking, is this really going to help me, or is this just going to be a burden to go through the process?

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Very well, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Do you know in Toronto how long one has to wait in order to get another work permit? Say you left one job and you're trying to get another one, and the clock is ticking because in order to qualify for landed immigrant status you have to work for 24 months out of the 36 months. So if I am to get a job today, it would take me quite a few months to get a permit, right?

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

Yes, it does. Again, I've heard of cases where it's gone around four months. I've heard people tell me they've seen cases go as long as six, but I can't necessarily say that these were in Toronto; they may have been outside the GTA.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

If a live-in caregiver decided to take a risk and pick up a job without the labour market opinion, whose responsibility is it? Is it the employer's responsibility or is it the employee's? Because she is now working without her permit. Technically there's already a problem. Is it really the employer's responsibility when an employer hires a person without the labour market opinion, which puts the employee in a fairly precarious situation? If a CBSA person shows up and picks up that person, that person can get deported immediately because she is now illegally in Canada. She is violating the immigration regulations.

So whose responsibility is it? Is it often the live-in caregivers who don't really know the Canadian laws that well, or is it the employer who is hiring someone without labour market opinion?

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

My understanding is that legally both can be held to account. More often than not, I think the caregiver is the one who suffers the most during any sort of correctional process--

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Because they get deported.

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

Yes, they have the most to lose by far.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Then if there's a promise.... I know there are consultants and employers out there who prey on these folks, these desperate women who are trying to find a job quickly, who wait for six months in order to get the new work permit. Sometimes the employer will promise that they're going to do this and that. Have you seen cases where people have been led down a garden path and then nothing has happened, and as a result they've ended up getting deported?

I know the statistics say that about 50% of the live-in caregivers end up not being able to stay in Canada permanently. Therefore, they've failed in their dreams to become Canadian citizens. Are those some of the problems faced by these live-in caregivers?

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

Certainly. I've heard of cases where a caregiver works in what otherwise seems to be a very good home. This is the employer they need to carry them through to the end, and then something will happen or the family has a change of plans. It turns out they don't necessarily care as much about the caregiver as they might have let on, and they end the employment and the caregiver is left in the lurch.

If the caregiver is sick for an extended period and can't necessarily do the tasks associated with the job, they're going to suffer when the employer says this can't work out because it's just not working for the family. But the caregiver, in the long run, is again the one who would suffer the most in that case.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Ultimately, to reduce all these problems--all the paperwork, the potential exploitation, the hardship of both the caregivers and potentially some of the Canadian families--wouldn't it be better if they just came in as landed immigrants, had the condition that they had to work for two or three years, and then became landed immigrants, as occurs in the entrepreneurial program?

If they come in as landed immigrants so that they don't have to, every time they change a job, get a new work permit, go through the wait for six months, and face potential abuse, won't that deal with the problem once and for all?

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

It may. That's not a subject I've explored perhaps as deeply as I could in the future. My experience has been with the live-in caregiver program as it is.

That may be a promising option. I don't know how difficult the legislative changes required for that would be. My hope--

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

We do that with entrepreneurs right now.

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

No, I understand that.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

They come in as landed immigrants under the condition that they create jobs and invest money. Once they do that, they can stay here permanently.

It's a matter of political will. It's not as though there's a temporary need for caregivers. I think there's a permanent need. We don't have a national child care program or national home care program, so we know that there's a permanent need for caregivers. Why not bring them in permanently? Why temporarily? It just causes all these troubles.

[Tristan Downe-Dewdney]

Again, it sounds like a very attractive idea, but I'd have to read further into the matter.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

In your mind, what should happen if employers and consultants are found to be exploiting workers, hiring them without the labour market opinion or not helping them get their visas...? Well, they should get their work permit changed before they start working anyway.

What do you think the immigration department should do in these cases?