Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Dec. 8th, 2009

[Anne Marie Majtenyi]

We find that it's simple. We have long-term funding now in three-year contracts. It's renewed every three years. The requirements are not overly strenuous. We have to prove that we're providing valuable services, but I don't find the requirements strenuous. I find the process is expedited in a very reasonable manner. I have absolutely no hesitation about the way the application and the granting process is looked after in the Ontario region.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bevilacqua.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank all the intervenors, our panellists, for today's presentation.

As you know, this committee has brought you here to listen to your best practices because of your expertise. We will then write a report, which will go to the government. I think you understand what I'm saying. It takes a bit of time for things to occur.

With the use of technology, I would imagine that some leadership could emerge from various organizations that deal with immigrant settlement and other immigrant-related issues, and that best practices could be shared.

First of all, is there such a site? Is there such a body that gathers this together--physically or technologically speaking--and would be a place where these best practices are shared? We spend a lot of time on the Internet now, as you know. I think it allows us to have a great opportunity to pool resources. I know you're stretched to the limit when it comes to financial resources, but I also think that during times... As we here in Parliament have to do as well, we need to turn that $1 into $2, if you know what I mean. That multiplier effect has to occur. Technology, in some ways, allows us to do that.

I don't mean this to put stress on your organizations. I know how busy you are. I know what numbers of people you deal with. But I was just wondering if in fact some leadership could emerge, perhaps from this panel itself, to create this type of information network that could alleviate many of the challenges you may be facing as you grapple with some possible best practices that would enhance your own performance.

[Moussa Guene]

Of course, we have to be in tune with our time. Technology is very costly. We have all spoken of the underfunding of organizations. To come to that point, additional resources are needed. In Quebec, the approach that has been taken is rather interesting. Various organizations are asking that the information be made available upfront. A guide entitled “Learning about Quebec” is available online. It contains all the information that a future immigrant to Quebec might need, particularly with regard to housing and skills.

However, there is no telephone number: everything is done through the Internet, which is all very well and good, but not all countries are as advanced as Canada, which has implemented a policy to connect Canadian families. PROMIS is looking at developing a portal on best practices, but we still need to define what those are. In dealing with people, we have to adapt our practices to suit their individual needs. We cannot adopt a one-size-fits-all approach. Some people have spent 15 years in refugee camps. We take a completely different approach depending on whether we are dealing with an entrepreneur, immigrant investor or foreign-selected graduate.

Is that something we can achieve? Perhaps in terms of awareness-raising and information-sharing. Be that as it may, I believe in a personalized approach much more than in something that applies uniformly to everyone.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

I perhaps have to be a little bit clearer on this issue. I'm talking about the actual organizations.

You have access to the Internet, right? Let's say that you have posted something on the Internet that Mr. Sorrento may actually find useful, or vice versa. That's all I'm saying. I don't want to create a big technological revolution here. It's very simple.

If you have a thought on an issue, or a challenge that you were able to solve using this model, you would just say, “Listen, I was faced with this case, this challenge, and this is how I solved it”. Then it's up to people to say if they could use it or not. I'm not looking for.... That's why I was very careful to tell you that I'm not looking to burden you with a lot of work; it's just a couple of sentences, really.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Please answer very quickly.

[Noureddine Belhocine]

I think I understand where you are getting at.

Indeed, in order to do more with less, we have to do things differently, no? If I am not mistaken, that is the gist of your question: how to optimize existing resources. Basically, what you are proposing can be useful: a kind of technological platform or user-friendly data bank with information on integration and intake services for immigrants to Canada. That is the sense of your question.

We do that somewhat informally when we conduct our own research. At times, we feel the need to see what our colleagues in Ontario or British Columbia are doing. Is that cost effective? It is for us. That is something we do, perhaps not in the way you described.

I myself see the usefulness of your proposal. It is a comparative analysis or benchmarking process consisting in a comparison of same practices across Canada, and that is not a bad thing to be doing. The question is how to operate such a system, how to fund it, how to make it accessible and whether organizations need additional resources to use it. It would be unfortunate if such a system were created but was not being used. Nevertheless, that could indeed be useful.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, sir.

Ms. Thi Lac.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you to everyone for being here with us this morning.

I am indeed pleased to meet people who help new immigrants settle, both in Quebec and in the rest of Canada. You know that I was one of them a number of years ago.

I was elected in a rural region during a by-election, and most people did not ask me about my party's electoral program, but about my origins and how I integrated into Quebec. You are right when you say that Quebeckers want immigrants to integrate into their culture.

I was also elected during a time when much was being said about reasonable and religious accommodation. Those debates received a lot of media coverage. I think that is what has aroused mistrust toward some Quebeckers in recent years. I would not say it is racism, but rather a certain mistrust.

Mr. Belhocine, you have talked about language learning among immigrants. I would like to know the proportion of immigrants who learn English compared to those who learn French, within your institution. Do you have any such statistics?

[Noureddine Belhocine]

I will be honest with you, I do not have any reliable, accurate statistics. However, speaking from experience, I could tell you that, because of the availability of services offered in Quebec, people tend to begin by learning French, because they live in a francophone society. However, that is not enough. They very quickly realize that only speaking one language is a serious handicap, both in Quebec and elsewhere.

English-language learning services are not available in Quebec, that is they are not publicly funded. Our organization offers English-language courses for a fee. They are open to everyone, including immigrants, but people have to pay for them. Obviously, since the offer is not available, people are naturally inclined to take French-language courses, because they are publicly funded.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Mr. Guene, you spoke about regionalization, about people who leave Montreal to settle in the suburbs.

[Moussa Guene]

Toward rural regions: suburbs are not part of the regionalization process.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Very well. We are talking about people who move to all regions in Quebec. In my area, the people who work with immigrants and especially refugees established an organization called La maison de la famille. Quebec families, people who have been established here for many generations, are paired with the families of new immigrants who settle in the region. I would not go as far as to say that they sponsor those families, but they do help them.

You also spoke about the hiring of immigrants. We know that employers in the regions find that immigrants are very able and willing to work. We do not have that problem in our region.

However, you also spoke about the recognition of foreign diplomas. Do you have statistics showing how many years it might take physicians or people who settle here to have their diplomas recognized so that they can practise the occupations for which they were trained?

[Moussa Guene]

Much progress has been made in Quebec with regard to the recognition of credentials. To date, the Government of Quebec, and particularly the Department of Immigration, has signed agreements with at least 17 trade associations. There are also what we call fast tracks, or quick access to the professional bodies. Some associations offer courses to candidates who want to sit the exams administered by various professional bodies. That helps. The process can take between six months and a year. The whole thing is quite expensive, and people who fail the exam have to start over and pay again.

With regard to regionalization, in smaller centres and municipalities, people at times might even begin to work. Some employers help them gain a sufficient number of hours of work in order for them to obtain their competency cards, or after having passed the professional exams. The reason for that is because there is a greater labour shortage in the regions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Young.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you very much, everyone, for coming here today, some of you from a great distance. We appreciate it very much.

My impression is that you get tremendous value for the money or bang for the buck in the work you do on the front line in assimilating new immigrants and refugees. Congratulations on your work.

My question is for Mrs. Majtenyi, please. I want to follow up on what Mr. Bevilacqua said, because I agree. I get a little concerned when I hear that agencies want to hire consultants. As we saw with eHealth Ontario, they hired consultants and wasted $600 million, and had nothing to show for it.

I think the best practices model is a great idea, and I'm not sure you have to spend a lot on technology. Couldn't you find ways to share best practices through the mail, through basic e-mail, or by meeting with your colleagues and other agencies on a monthly basis or something like that?

[Anne Marie Majtenyi]

I think there are some technical reporting requirements we would need assistance with. Those can even be provided by CIC itself. For example, it would be for program evaluation, setting measurable objectives, and various kinds of accountability. For that, some technical background is required. I'm certainly not suggesting using consultants within our sector. These would be for the very technical aspects of contract administration, not program delivery. I think program delivery is best delivered by program staff.

In terms of best practices, I think there have been initiatives. For example, OCASI, the Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants, has a long-standing preoccupation with working with the sector to develop best standards.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

These are standards for administration or for--

[Anne Marie Majtenyi]

No. They're standards for service delivery. I'm talking about best practices for service delivery.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

So that is the best place to start, I would think.

[Anne Marie Majtenyi]

The Canadian Council for Refugees also has excellent documentation on best practices on its website.

I think there are two things. On an individual level, agencies need to incorporate best practices in the policy manuals they use for training of staff and for supervision of staff. We have that kind of document at the multicultural centre. It sets out standards of service and has practices that we feel are the best practices we've learned.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you very much.

I have another question, this time for Madam Shih.

You said that you came to Canada in 1996 and you learned English. I'd like to ask you two questions.

First, I'd like you to comment on the supports you received that worked for you. Which ones worked best for you?

Second, we find that relatively few newcomers take advantage of the language training that is available. You would think that everyone would want to. Do you have any comment on why that is?

Also, do you have any comment on the idea of language training vouchers so that people can choose a settlement agency that provides services that may be close to their homes or that better meet their needs in terms of the time of day or the time of the week when they can study English or French?

[Sandy Shih]

Thank you for the questions.

First, I will answer the second question on language training. For our agencies, I think it depends on cultural differences. For example, our agency always provides ESL classes in the morning, because in the afternoon, after 2:30, the parents have to pick up their children at school.

But sometimes some people need evening classes because they work during daytime and they have only basic English, people like the Vietnamese and the Karen refugees, who work at mushroom farms or other farms or with construction companies. They don't have time to study in the daytime.

The ELSA program is free ESL, but it's always provided in the morning. I know some Karen people who were enrolled in English in the ELSA program in the evenings, but because they worked in the daytime, they were so tired from working that after a meal they were too tired to make it.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Yes, of course. Thank you very much.

I wonder if anybody has any comments on the new citizenship guide. Have you seen the new citizenship guide? Does anybody have any comments on that?

[Sandy Shih]

I haven't seen the new guide, but I heard about it on TV.

Actually, we provide citizenship classes in Mandarin to help new immigrants pass the citizenship test. If we get the new guide, we will add some parts of it to our Mandarin citizenship class.