Evidence of meeting #12 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was irb.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Luke Morton  Senior Legal Counsel, Manager, Refugee Legal Team, Legal Services, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Les Linklater  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic and Program Policy, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Peter MacDougall  Director General, Refugees, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Peter Hill  Acting Associate Vice-President, Program Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Good afternoon. This is meeting number 12 of the Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration. Today is Tuesday, May 4, 2010.

The orders of the day are pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, April 29, 2010. We are dealing with Bill C-11, An Act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act and the Federal Courts Act.

This is the first day of our hearings, and we have appearing before us the Honourable Jason Kenney, who is the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism. He will be present for the first hour of our session, and he has a presentation to make to the committee. After that, as you know, Minister, I'm sure some of the committee members will have one or two questions for you.

3:30 p.m.

Calgary Southeast Alberta

Conservative

Jason Kenney ConservativeMinister of Citizenship

Really? I'm surprised.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

So welcome, and thank you for coming. I think this is your first bill, so the best of luck to you.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Mr. Chair, a point of order.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

A point of order, Ms. Chow.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Do you not need the committee to approve the subcommittee recommendation in front of us so that we--

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Yes, that's coming at the end of the meeting.

3:30 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Should we not make the agreement that we're going to be studying this bill before the minister speaks to the bill?

Normally I would think that you need this committee to say, yes, Bill C-11 is properly in front of us and therefore the minister will be speaking, and then later on we'll have hearings, etc. I would think that in terms of procedure--correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Chair--you would need to have this bill properly in front of this committee prior to proceeding with it. I thought that was the reason why we had a subcommittee meeting prior to this meeting. Should we not adopt that--

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

As you know, Ms. Chow, it was agreed that this bill would be heard, and that whatever this committee was reviewing would stop and we'd review this bill immediately. That was in the work plan and we are now doing that. We're stopping immediately.

As you know the custom of this place--as with most jurisdictions in this country--when a bill is introduced and comes to a committee, the minister for that particular ministry comes to the committee and briefs us as to what the bill is all about, along with his staff. That is what he is going to do now.

As for the rest of it, you're quite right, the subcommittee did discuss these matters and all the other matters, and that will be discussed later in this meeting. The reason why it's on later in this meeting is because I think we all want to hear what the minister is going to say, and we don't want to delay that.

So we'll proceed.

Minister, thank you very much for coming.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you, Chairman.

I'm quite excited to be here, to be working with all of my colleagues on what is a critically important piece of legislation that constitutes part of a broader package to bring balanced reform back to Canada's asylum system.

These balanced reforms will result in bona fide refugees getting faster protection in Canada, much faster than is currently the case, while those who seek to abuse our country's generosity would also, on the other side, be removed much more quickly. These reforms would also enhance the fairness of our system and would ensure that the asylum system actually exceeds our domestic and international legal obligations.

Chairman, as part of the package, we are also proposing to expand our refugee resettlement programs and increase the number of UN refugees and others, who are often living in camps or urban slums and are victims of conflict and ethnic cleansing...we would increase our welcome to those kinds of individuals by some 20%, or 2,500 individuals. We would also increase support for the refugee assistance program for the successful integration of government-assisted refugees by some 20%, the first time that program has been increased in a decade.

In essence, the Balanced Refugee Reform Act focuses on improving our asylum system. The act would introduce a new information gathering interview at the independent Immigration and Refugee Board, would provide for a hearing within 60 days, as compared to the current 19 months, and would also introduce a new refugee appeal division, something refugee advocates have been requesting for a long time.

I would be remiss at this point not to point out the extraordinary and admirable efforts made by our colleague Mr. St-Cyr. I know he was disappointed about the failure of his bill. However, there is finally an appeal section, which is even better than what was provided by the legislation in 2002.

This new appeal division would provide most claimants with a second chance, an opportunity to introduce new evidence about their claim and to do so in an oral hearing, if necessary. And, significantly, Mr. Chairman, the bill would make it possible to remove those who would abuse our system within a year of their final IRB decision.

Bill C-11 would also put in place authority to develop a list of safe countries of origin. Because I recognize that there has been general concern over this issue, I wish to focus my remarks today on the issue of safe countries of origin.

While I referred last week in the House to our current number one country for asylum claims, and the 97% of claimants who withdrew or abandoned their claims, there have been similar spikes in claims from other countries over the past 25 years. I am referring here to Portugal, Chile, Costa Rica, Hungary in 2002, Czechoslovakia in 1997. Each time, the government, be it Conservative or Liberal, imposed visas following spikes in asylum requests from democratic countries, which were almost all denied by the IRB.

A safe country of origin would be a country that is a principal source of refugee claims, the overwhelming majority of which are unfounded. These two criteria would be the starting point for even considering whether to review a country for possible inclusion on the list. There's nothing arbitrary about the process we propose. Countries on the list would be chosen in a way that is fair, objective, transparent, and reported to Parliament. They would be placed on the list only after a thorough assessment based on objective criteria.

Such countries would have a human rights record whereby individuals would be offered protection against persecution, as the convention says, for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or membership in a particular social group, and whereby persons would not face the risk of torture or death. This assessment would draw on publicly available reporting and analysis from a wide range of independent sources, including NGOs on human rights.

An advisory panel, including representatives from several government departments, would be established to provide advice on designations and advice to the minister. Input and advice would also be sought from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. The panel would also provide submissions recommending removal of a country at any time.

The list of countries would be short, with probably no more than a handful of countries on it at any given time. If you look at the current statistics, only a handful of countries that have a significant number of claims, the overwhelming majority of which are unfounded, would even be considered. The independent panel would then apply the qualitative assessment with respect to human rights practices and the protection of individuals. This is very important, because there are some misconceptions about this. All eligible refugee claimants, including those from designated safe countries, would continue to receive a full oral hearing before an independent decision-maker at the IRB, as they do under the current system, and would continue to have access to the Federal Court. We would continue to exceed our charter and international legal obligations with respect to claimants coming from designated safe countries.

While claimants from such countries of origin would still be able to seek judicial review, as I've said, they would of course not have access to the new RAD. This is because, Mr. Chairman, for the handful of typically democratic and rights-respecting countries from which we receive huge waves of unfounded claims, claims that are not happening spontaneously but are very often organized, we need some type of tool to accelerate the process, as most of the western European asylum systems have, short of having to resort to the blunt instrument of visa imposition, which successive governments of different parties have had to do. As I mentioned, most western European asylum systems have for consideration a country designation process to accelerate claims from safe countries. Mr. Guterres, the UN High Commissioner, said here in Ottawa that, “There are indeed safe countries of origin. There are indeed countries in which there is a presumption that refugee claims will probably not be as strong as in other countries.”

I should mention, parenthetically, that for several years he was Prime Minister of Portugal, where they have a very strong SCO system.

Mr. Chairman, I recognize that my parliamentary colleagues have also expressed concern about this aspect of my proposals, and that is why I am here today. I want to hear from members of the standing committee on this issue. I am extending a hand of openness toward my colleagues to modify the bill to address concerns. I am prepared to discuss the matter in good faith and transparency.

Colleagues, the safe country of origin is a critical tool to manage a spike in claims from countries that observe international human rights norms and obligations and that protect their citizens. The option is not to have a SCO process in the reformed asylum system or nothing at all; the option is to have that as a tool to deal with these waves of unfounded claims or to have access to one tool only, which is the imposition of a visa. I think it's important to keep that in mind.

I'm pleased to see how well these reforms have been received.

The Globe and Mail editorialized, and I quote:

Canada has a crying need for a revamped refugee-determination system, and it is to the credit of the...government that in a minority Parliament it has crafted a bold set of proposals that are fair and respect due process, while also seeking to deter those who would play this country for fools.

The Toronto Star endorsed these reforms, saying that this government “...deserves credit for showing the political will to act on an issue ducked” in the past.

The Montreal Gazette wrote that “Bill C-11...is a solid and sensible attempt...to kick-start a system that is wallowing in disarray” and that it “is a reform whose time has come”.

Experts like Peter Showler, former chair of the IRB and head of the refugee policy forum at the U of O, said, “It is even more difficult to design an entire refugee claim that is both fast and fair. The...government has done just that....”

But most importantly, Canadians support these measures by an overwhelming majority. By four to one, Canadians say that “...more needs to be done to quickly remove from Canada people whose refugee claims are unfounded and rejected”. Eighty-four percent of Canadians say that measures should be taken to reform the refugee system. And “81 per cent agreed that 'all refugee claims should be dealt with more quickly so that genuine refugees can settle in Canada faster and bogus claimants be sent home more quickly'”. This is according to a Decima Research poll.

Mr. Chairman, I want to close by emphasizing this.

I must say the amendments I am putting forward would help us maintain Canada's noble humanitarian tradition as it will allow for the protection of those that are persecuted while expediting the removal of individuals who do not need Canada's protection.

In closing, Mr. Chairman, I need to emphasize that should this bill not succeed in getting parliamentary consensus and being adopted, we will miss, frankly, an historic opportunity. I think everyone involved in this system, all of its observers, has recognized for a long time that there were some serious dysfunctionalities within our asylum system. It's not working well enough for bona fide victims of persecution. It's working too well, one could say, for those who come here who don't need our protection and who are able to stay for several years. It's not working for taxpayers.

It needs to be reformed, and if we want to get a refugee appeal division in place, if we want to be able to allocate more resources to resettle more of those who are in dire straits around the world, through our 20% increase in resettlement under the assistance program, if we want faster protection for bona fide refugees, if we want a tool that can help us to consider avoiding the imposition of visas in the future that are injurious to our diplomatic and commercial relations, if we want all of these things, Mr. Chairman, then I submit that this is a sound and balanced package that can be supported by all of those who believe in Canada's humanitarian tradition as a place of refuge.

I am happy to take your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for your presentation. We do have some questions.

Mr. Bevilacqua has the floor.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Maurizio Bevilacqua Liberal Vaughan, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I will be splitting my time with the honourable member from Bourassa.

Minister, as you know, we will be listening to many witnesses in the coming days, and we will do our best to listen to as many groups as possible to get an assessment of what they believe is the right course of action for our country as it relates to the changes you propose.

Minister, during second reading I asked whether you were open to further measures to increase the transparency and the accountability of the designated country of origin process. You responded by saying that you are open to reasonable amendments at the committee stage, and enough factors are still missing from the bill that would make designated country of origin provision transparent and accountable.

First, I would like to suggest that the word “safe” appear in the legislation. Much more detail, of course, is required about what criteria you would use to determine whether to designate a country as safe. An amendment should consider whether a country is a signatory to relevant international human rights instruments and its human rights record with respect to the same. The amendment should also consider the availability in the country for seeking state protection and redress.

You have said that the designated country of origin list should not be an exhaustive one. In that case, you must include criteria that focus on how countries will in fact be considered for designation. In this regard, I would suggest that these criteria should include a combination of the volume of claims from that country and the associated acceptance rate at the IRB for that country.

I also think it would be of great assistance to the committee's deliberations on the safe country issue if the minister, you, were to bring the draft regulations to the committee that describe the designation process in more detail.

Essentially, Minister, will you commit to accepting these factors for an amendment and to bring draft regulations to the committee?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for that constructive question from Mr. Bevilacqua.

I did indicate indeed at second reading my openness to an amendment that would incorporate some of these principles. I didn't hear anything to which I would object in the parameters that Mr. Bevilacqua has outlined for a possible amendment to the bill.

I do agree that there should be more detail in the bill than currently is the case with respect to both the criteria for designation of safe countries and clear transparency of the process, which we should also have. The answer is yes, I would be prepared to recommend government support for an amendment that includes those criteria that include reference to “safe” as a principle; to the numeric criteria, such as a country that is a large source of asylum claims, the vast majority of which are unfounded; and the qualitative criteria, including compliance with the various relevant international human rights instruments.

I would also be prepared to table, as I have indicated to a number of members of this committee, by way of a court letter, draft regulations on the process for designation. Now, I have to just put a caveat here. Obviously the cabinet process exists for pre-publication, for pre-gazetting, and public commentary prior to final implementation. I can't completely pre-determine the outcome of the public commentary, but we will endeavour, as a department, to share our draft suggested regulations for comments from this committee.

There is just one fly in the ointment, which is that the draft regulations would be based on the amendment that presumably will be adopted by the committee. I'd like to hear from the committee as to when would be the optimal time to present draft regulations that would define the process for designating safe countries.

But long story short, yes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

I'm sorry, Mr. Coderre; you have two minutes. I apologize.

May 4th, 2010 / 3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

You're sorry I only have two minutes?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

That's all you have.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Minister, I have experienced exactly what you are experiencing. I also issued visas. Within the Canadian system, consistent with the values inherent in the immigration system, we must draw a distinction, during this process, between granting authority to officials—and I was on the front lines in this regard—and the issue of appeals to the IRB. That is one thing.

I would however like us to discuss safe countries. I was the first to negotiate the Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement, in cooperation with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. When we start saying that a country is safe it means that we're taking away that primordial value, in the area of immigration, in Canada, and each case loses its specificity.

For instance, if, for a host of reasons, an individual is harassed in a given country because he is homosexual and you say that this country is safe, from that point on you are sending out a message that every person coming out of that country is safe. Therefore the option to help someone on a humanitarian basis no longer exists. We need more transparency.

I personally, as a former minister of Immigration, object to the idea of labelling people based on the country they're from. I think we need to draw a distinction between a visa... In fact, perhaps we should say that there should be visas issued for each country, if we follow our logic. We need to say that in considering each specific case, regardless of where it is from, there is a reality people are facing.

I would like to quickly address the final point, Minister—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Mr. Coderre, I'm going to let him answer the question, but your time has already expired.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Jason Kenney Conservative Calgary Southeast, AB

Regarding the decision made by officials, I should point out that we are dealing with highly-trained IRB officials. It is the same system you yourself, Mr. Coderre, set up for the immigration section of the IRB. It is exactly the same thing, and I have confidence in this section. The system is indeed the same as what exists in most Western European asylum systems.

Regarding the safe countries, Mr. Coderre, I should remind you that, when you were minister, you negotiated the Canada-U.S. Safe Third Country Agreement in a very responsible way. The agreement stated that we would not accept asylum requests from citizens from other countries travelling through the United States. You established a principle that goes far beyond the designation of safe third countries here, because we allow—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

Go ahead, Minister.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

We have a point of order, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Coderre, you have a point of order. Stop the clock.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

With all due respect, Mr. Chairman, the Canada-U.S. Third Country Agreement included exemptions. It allowed for an assessment based on the value and individuality of each case. That is why we did not generalize.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Tilson

You know, I don't think that's a point of order, and we're way over time. I'm going to move on to Monsieur St-Cyr, and you can pick this up at another time.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Thierry St-Cyr Bloc Jeanne-Le Ber, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And I thank you, Mr. Kenney, especially for your comments regarding the refugee appeal section. It is true that I worked hard on that. Honestly, I am pleased to find it in the bill and I note that, indeed you are right, there have been enhancements in the version which is currently included in the bill that has not yet been passed.

That said, I am disappointed that this section does not apply for all cases. In my opinion, the very nature of an appeal section is to ensure there are no errors in the first instance. There is no way of knowing that until one appeals a decision.

I know that you probably do not like this, but I will try to simulate a case, to consider a hypothetical case under this new bill. Let us assume that someone arrives here, asks for refugee protection and, in the opinion of the department, is clearly not a genuine refugee or someone who meets the definition of a refugee. Assuming that an official processing the case likes the individual and decides to grant him the status, could you then consider using the authority provided in the new bill to appeal the decision and reverse the first decision granting refugee status? Because the minister may also appeal a decision.