Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 6th, 2010

[Brian Goodman]

It is.

I'll just say one word about the first question, though. I think you can appreciate that, once again, we do not make government policy. It's CIC and the government that make government policy. So my views as to whether the policies are the right ones or not are not germane. It's important to know that. But we are consulted, as I say, about what the impact of any particular provision would be on the board. I won't repeat that, because I've already said that.

In terms of the challenges, I think the challenges will be, first of all, to get the right people in the right places for the right time. We must succeed in developing a high-quality first-level decision-making body in the public service in the board. We must.

Because that has been a problem with other countries like Great Britain, where the first-level decision-makers stay for about a year, in most cases--I was there. They're very young. Their decisions are not very professional in the sense that there is a very high overturn rate. More than 20% of the decisions are overturned on appeal.

Now, to give you an idea, while I realize that judicial review is not an appeal, our success rate on judicial review is that only 0.05%, half a per cent, of the decisions of the IRB in any year are overturned on judicial review--one half of one per cent.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

If I may, these are points that I raised in debate with the minister in the extensive consultation that was held with us and the minister as well, so I appreciate the sensitivity of that.

Now, let's get to some sort of basic things that make this world work.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Maybe it could be one thing, because you're almost out of time.

[Maurizio Bevilacqua, Liberal, Vaughan, ON]

Yes, maybe one thing. It's the amount of money allocated for this reform. I think it's in the neighbourhood of $540 million.

What percentage of that amount of money would you require to carry out the functions that you need to carry out? You can certainly project; I mean, you've been there long enough. You know this public service business probably better than most so you would probably be able to tell me as a parliamentarian the amount of funding that is required to bring the system to the level that it needs to be at.

[Brian Goodman]

Mr. Bevilacqua, we have told the government what we need. We have yet to hear what we're going to get. We have a global amount, but we haven't been told what portion of that our portion will be, and over what period of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

That's it. Thank you.

Sorry, Mr. Bevilacqua, but you're well over.

Monsieur St-Cyr.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you.

First, I would like to make a comment.

You said that currently, under the present legislation, only .5% of first-level decisions are reversed at the judicial review stage. As far as I am concerned, this proves that this is not a real appeal system. Too much is the same as not enough. If too many decisions are reversed on appeal, that indicates there is a problem at that level. However, if none or only a few first-level decisions are reversed, that indicates there is a problem with the appeals system. That being said, I will leave that aside since we are here to talk about the future.

Let us talk about Bill C-11. Earlier, I asked you a few questions about hiring first-level decision-makers from the general public. Can you tell me what proportion of people are hired from outside the public service in the division where this model exists, the Immigration Division? Then, what would be a reasonable target for this type of hiring for the future Refugee Division?

[Brian Goodman]

Mr. St-Cyr, since I have been chair I don't believe there have been any competitions for the immigration division, any staffing processes, that have been open to other than public servants. I believe that's so.

Now, they have been open to persons employed at the board. Some have been open to persons employed at the board, which then includes former GIC appointees. In fact, some of our GIC appointees are public servants on leave. We have about 14 of those.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

What you are telling me applies to Board members. My question relates to first-level public servant decision-makers in the Immigration Division. Are you telling me that all of them were hired from inside the public service?

[Brian Goodman]

That is my understanding. I don't believe there have been any competitions since I have been chair that have been open to persons outside the public service.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

In your previous answer, you said that it might be worthwhile to consider hiring directly from the general public to staff the future group that will be created for refugees under Bill C-11. Do you believe there is an optimal target or threshold to aim for?

[Brian Goodman]

I think what we want is an appropriate balance, a mix. After all, it is called the Balanced Refugee Reform Act. I think we need a balance in those who make refugee determinations.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Is the ratio 10/90, 50/50 or 25/75? What would be the optimal ratio?

[Brian Goodman]

Well, we haven't arrived at that yet. It's really too early in the process to determine that.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

You say that you deal with 25,000 cases per year at this time. Of that number, how many are accepted each year? How many claimants are accepted as bona fide refugees? Also, have you tried to estimate what the figure would be under Bill C-11? For example, once the system is stable--three or four years after implementation--how many people would be accepted, in both cases?

[Brian Goodman]

I certainly can't estimate how many cases will be accepted under the new system because I don't know what the mix of claims will be. I can tell you that the acceptance rate in 2009 was 42%, and it was the same figure in 2008. So 42% of all claims that were finalized were accepted.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

If the ratio between the number of claimants and the number of case dealt with remains the same, will more claimants be accepted?

[Brian Goodman]

Once again, each claim is determined on its own merits. And the countries of origin change.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Dykstra has the floor.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to give you a minute or two to conclude. I have a little bit of extra time because we have two spots coming up and I am going to take both.

I did want you, Mr. Goodman, to finish up on Mr. Bevilacqua's question with respect to the financial component of this. I thought it would be fair to give you a minute or two to conclude your comments on the overall structure of the financial component of what this endeavour will actually cost.

[Brian Goodman]

Well, I believe that figure was provided to you by the minister, but there are a number of components, and we are simply one important recipient of the funding. There are others. In particular, there is the Canada Border Services Agency, so that it can do front-end security screening in cooperation with CSIS and, more importantly, so that it can remove unsuccessful claims. That is what I talked about earlier. You can't concentrate on only one part of the system because you create bottlenecks in the other.

The Federal Court is going to require more judges, because we will hopefully be getting some money to address the backlog of cases. That currently stands, as I mentioned, at about 59,000.

Now, it's important to understand--because you've read Bill C-11--that the transition provisions apply to the backlog cases when the new act comes into force, and that the timeframes that will be stipulated in the rules, it's clear from the legislation, will not apply to the backlog claims--that is, the 8 and 60 days, etc.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Of course, until the bill is actually delivered through to royal assent and enacted, some of the perceptions and some of the thinking on this can't be implemented.

You made the point that the discussion regarding the financial aspect of this will obviously involve a great deal of time and effort on your behalf. You would acknowledge, though, and I think you did, that your involvement in this process ostensibly started 18 months ago. And really, from day one, the ministry has made sure that you, your department, and your organization have been included in terms of the research and some of the proposals that have turned into what is now Bill C-11.

[Brian Goodman]

Once again, we are not responsible for policy development, so we weren't consulted about what the policy should be. But as I mentioned, we were certainly consulted about what the implications of any policy choice would be for the board, including what moneys would be required to deal with the backlog and to implement the new system.

I should tell you, Mr. Dykstra, that the process of identifying to the government what resources would be required started long before there was talk of reform.

[Rick Dykstra, Conservative, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you.

You certainly can't speak to the policy that was worked into Bill C-11, necessarily, but to give folks an understanding, what are your comments, perhaps, on what the problems in the current system are and what your input was from a structural perspective on where change needed to happen?

[Brian Goodman]

Well, as I mentioned, the fact of the matter is that it takes too long for refugee claims to be determined. The current average processing time is over 19 months; it's 19.2 months. I attended the annual meeting of the Canadian Council for Refugees a couple of years ago now, I think, when that time was at 16 months or something, and I said then that it was too long.

And it is--far too long. People's lives are on hold. Genuine refugees are waiting to have their terms accepted and it's not fair to keep them in suspense. Their lives and those of their families are on hold. The fact of the matter is that we need to determine refugee claims more quickly.

We then need to make sure that those whose claims are unsuccessful, once they've gone through all their appeals, are removed quickly. Otherwise, we become a haven for people who believe that all they have to do is come here and make a refugee claim and they can stay here forever, or virtually forever.