Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 11th, 2010

[John Norquay]

—system are really of much graver concern for me and for my clients.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Can I ask the same question to the Canadian Centre for Victims of Torture and to Mr. Matas on designating safe countries? Have you seen examples where, if it is designated, some of the refugee claimants from these countries would not have a right to appeal? Therefore, what kinds of consequences do you think it would have?

[Ezat Mossallanejad]

Thank you very much.

Unfortunately, in the first decade of the 21st century, the threshold of torture has gone up. No country is immune to torture, including advanced industrial countries; therefore, anybody could be subjected to torture. I think there is no safe country in the world.

We have a problem with the designation of the United States of America as a safe country. Many people come and then they are sent back. The refugee determination system is different in the U.S. and in Canada. The rate of acceptance is much lower in the U.S. Also, there is no quasi-judicial body like the IRB.

One example I have is that there were claimants from St. Vincent. St. Vincent is a very democratic country, with a parliamentary system, but it is not at all democratic for gays and lesbians. I have plenty of clients coming from St. Vincent. They have been subjected to torture by the community, by their family, by religious people, and with no protection whatsoever from the police. I think they need protection in Canada. For the first time in the history of the Canadian Centre for Victims of Torture, I have accepted clients who claim torture against some democratic countries, unbelievably.

And then, unfortunately, torture—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you very much, sir. The time is up.

Mr. Calandra.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Norquay, Ms. Chow brought up Ghana and Malawi. Would Ghana and Malawi, in your opinion, be safe countries if we were to have a safe country of origin?

[John Norquay]

Based on the experience I've had with those countries, they don't seem safe to me, absolutely not.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

This is going to sound like a stupid question, but do you think it would be unreasonable to assume that a trained public servant could also not make that same assessment as you have through your experience?

[John Norquay]

Well, yes, if they were trained public servants looking at the same evidence I'm looking at.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

The proposed legislation allows us to identify safe countries but also to look at groups or regions within safe countries and—I don't want to say isolate them, that's a bad choice of words—but look at them and say that perhaps there are some additional protections that are needed.

Would this not, in your opinion, help us—no matter the person's religion or whatever might be the issue—in addressing some of the concerns that you and other people have raised?

[John Norquay]

I think the concern is around the criteria for establishing the list, and oversight as well. Those, to me, are the major issues, and there are no provisions in the bill for determining either of those. I think that's where the alarm is coming from, because we just don't have enough information.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

But ultimately, if we use a process that includes advice from individuals such as yourself, groups such as yourself, and trained public servants such as Mr. Bauer, who has over 40 years of experience, we could potentially come to a reasonable list that also identifies the groups and the regions. Is that something we could probably achieve?

[Jim Karygiannis, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Oh, please.

[John Norquay]

To be honest, I'm very concerned about the timeframes proposed for the first hearing, the 60-day hearing. For example--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I want to focus in specifically on the safe country of origin.

[John Norquay]

My issue is that the safe third country is what cuts out the right to an appeal. A lot of times you'll be at that first 60-day hearing and not presenting your full case, for a variety of reasons. For example, many of my clients would have just received an HIV diagnosis for the first time and be reeling from that and experiencing all the shock. To expect them to be able to properly present their case is not reasonable.

Moreover, the--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

But ultimately, wouldn't you agree that we could come to an understanding of what a safe country is if we used the expertise of people such as you and the public service?

[John Norquay]

If there was oversight and accountability for that decision, then--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

It's something we can look at, as long as it's focused a little bit more and has identifiable approaches on how we—

[John Norquay]

I personally am not categorically opposed to having designated countries, but the charter would most likely have something else to say about that.

I fully understand that there is a need to streamline the system to get out bogus claims. The problem is throwing out legitimate claims, and it's just not right to do that. It needs to be more balanced.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Yes, I understand that. I appreciate that. Okay.

I'm sorry, but I didn't get the name of the gentleman with Mr. Matas. You don't appear on my list, so I'm not sure what your name is, but you mentioned that one of the problems is that it takes a long time to get all the information required. Is there no way in which the requirements that you need can be addressed? Can putting additional resources into the system help alleviate the delays?

[Ezat Mossallanejad]

Thank you very much. I expected you to mention my name.

Yes, additional resources are definitely important, but additional resources don't resolve the problem. Now we have to assess physical and psychological scars of torture. We need to send them to a physical practitioner--

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I don't disagree with you on that. I only have five minutes—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

You have 30 seconds.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

I just have 30 seconds, so I wanted to make sure you would be in agreement on resources.

I'll end with a comment.

Mr. Bauer, a lot of us talk about a lot of different things around this place, but you, after 40 years, have actually been fighting for a lot of things, and I think it behooves us to take your advice when we are considering what we're doing. I want to thank you for 40 years in some very difficult spots around the world and for your service to this country.

With that, my 30 seconds are done.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I want to thank you gentlemen in Toronto, London, and Ottawa for coming today and giving your views on this bill to us. I thank you very much. That concludes our time with you. Thanks for coming.