Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 10th, 2011

[Debbie Douglas]

I'm trying to decide what to start with to answer your questions because you've raised a number of points.

Let me start with your last question. As I said at the top of my presentation, we know that because of the huge change that happened in 2005-06, there was a delay in the rollout of the COIA. There was a need to build capacity both within the department and within the sector, and hence the slippage of dollars.

Even with the 5% strategic review, we believe that cut could have been absorbed without the drastic cuts we have seen in the province. Certainly, not only will clients be impacted in terms of services, but also agencies are employers. They have the same legal responsibility in terms of employees that the federal government has as the employer of the public service, or as our private sector has. That's one of the concerns: that because of the relationship that non-profits have with government--and particularly with the federal government, where we have contribution agreements as opposed to grants--they often do not have the room to develop contingency plans over many years.

When you hear the Afghan Association speak about liabilities, that is a very real cost. It is something we are working on with Citizenship and Immigration Canada, to figure out a way that they can help support the agencies through those kinds of transitions as it has to do with their legal liabilities around issues of severance, working notices, lease agreements, and those kinds of things.

We are certainly looking at one of your suggestions, and we are paying particular attention to the 2012-13 fiscal year when the settlement allocation model is supposed to be rolled out. If we're using 2009 landing numbers for Ontario in 2010, we're looking at 118, 120, taking into account roughly the number of refugees plus permanent residents landing, and we're looking at an additional $20 million cut. There is just absolutely no way the province can afford to absorb another $20 million in 2012-13, particularly before we know the real impacts of the $43 million cut we'll have had.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you, Ms. Douglas.

Ms. Chow.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

Ms. Douglas, you have a few more pages you were about to talk about. I'm wondering whether you can briefly describe what else you had prepared and didn't have time to talk about, and some of the recommendations. Can you explain a little bit more about how to continue in terms of the transition?

I will just ask a bunch of questions. To the Afghan Association, you heard of the cuts just before Christmas. I assume people wouldn't start working until January. That's about 28 working days. Has the department come to you and said this is how they can assist you in helping all the clients you have been serving--over 1,000--how they will then continue to get service? Have they done that? Have they offered some kind of mitigation in terms of your $300,000 debt? You don't even need to answer. You're shaking your head.

There are 35 more working days before the end of March, before the funding is gone, not a lot of time. What are you planning to do?

Maybe Ms. Douglas first, and then to the Afghan Association.

[Debbie Douglas]

One of the things I wanted to impress on the committee was the whole sense of partnership that's been building over the last five years in Ontario, not only between the federal government and the provincial government, but also the funding stakeholders like the City of Toronto, which has a memorandum of understanding as part of COIA, as well as our community foundations like the United Way of Greater Toronto. All these agencies and the private foundations have often come together to leverage CIC funding so that agencies are able to provide a holistic program within a case management framework.

The fact that $43 million has been taken out of the system just undermines the whole partnership that has been developed. It forces the funders to take a look at what they can do if the integrity of the infrastructure of some of our agencies has been compromised. That is also something we are urging CIC to pay attention to and to engage those other funders as it thinks through how best to deal with this new financial reality we have in Ontario.

I think it's very important that we pay attention to what further cuts within the next fiscal year will mean to Ontario. We think a delay of the settlement allocation model is doable. The same way Quebec has had its very special agreement, which we don't begrudge, we wish Ontario could have a similar agreement. We absolutely understand the need for a settlement allocation model. We do believe that money should follow immigrants. But we also know we cannot evaluate programs and we cannot look at outcomes only by numbers. We also have to look at quality and effectiveness of services. Those are also positive outcomes.

[Dost Yar, Treasurer, Afghan Association of Ontario]

As Jamal mentioned in his opening statement, the immediate impact is on our lease.

The lease was signed for five years based on CIC's insistence. We were working from a different location before 2008. We were told to move from that location and they would find a better place, better furniture, and so on and so forth. Fine, we don't care: if you pay for it, we'll do it; otherwise, we'll not move.

The new location requirement was that we had to sign the lease for five years. We contacted the CIC about the lease issue. They said it was no problem, to go ahead and sign the lease; they'd pay the first month and the last two months of the five-year lease. And they did that.

Then, after we were told that there would be no more funding beginning April 1 of this year, we didn't know what to do. There were still two years left on the lease. In fact, last week we informed the landlord that the last two months of the lease...we can use that deposit. The landlord told us, no, we can't; we signed the lease and we have a legal obligation.

On the one hand, we didn't know what to do. We sent an e-mail to CIC asking them what do we do now: you advised us to sign the lease with the landlord, you paid the deposit of the last two months, and you agreed, you gave the approval. But now they will not respond to us.

On the other hand, the landlord keeps asking us...and we're scared. The board is thinking that if the landlord comes tomorrow and locks the door, our office people won't....

We don't know what's going to happen next Monday. The day before yesterday, the landlord dropped off another letter for us saying that we have until February 14 to pay the rent for this month. We have not paid it yet.

[Olivia Chow, NDP, Trinity—Spadina, ON]

What about your clients? What are they going to do? And then there's your staff.

[Dost Yar]

Well, we are still servicing the clients. We informed some of them. We have a TV program, where we tell about the services and so forth. They're not happy, basically. We're mouth to mouth in the programs and other services, so they're affected, of course.

The volunteers are affected emotionally; we have so many volunteers who come in--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Mr. Shory is next.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Mr. Chair, being a first-generation new Canadian, I highly appreciate the value of settlement funding and the services provided by these agencies. As a matter of fact, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank both Canada and the service provider agencies.

I have several questions, so I would highly appreciate it if everyone could give straight answers and short answers.

First, to Ms. Douglas, how long, maximum, can someone stay with the program?

[Debbie Douglas]

Citizenship and Immigration program eligibility criteria are based on status. However, the department has an unwritten policy that the funding should be focused on initial settlement, so between one and three years. But to be eligible, one must be a permanent resident as opposed to a citizen or a non-permanent resident.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Are you aware of anyone who continued the program after they started working?

[Debbie Douglas]

Absolutely--and not only after they started working, but sometimes after years. We know that immigrant women in particular often come to settlement at a later date because of family obligations. We also know that new immigrants, regardless of education, often take survival jobs and are unable to access services--

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

I'm sorry to cut you off, but I have questions for other witnesses also. The chair has given us only five minutes.

Finally, Ms. Douglas, do people who are enrolled in the program after they start work pay for the program, or do they still keep on utilizing the program while also getting paid from their regular work?

[Debbie Douglas]

Government-funded programs are free to clients. If agencies are charging, then they should not be doing so under the federal program.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Thank you.

To Ms. Foster and Ms. Morris from the Association for New Canadians, are you aware that permanent resident landings in Newfoundland are up about 40% since 2003, and that landings in Ontario have been decreased substantially over the same period?

First, do you think it is reasonable that we have increased funding to Newfoundland and decreased funding to Ontario; and two--short and sweet--should the funding follow the immigrants, or should the funding stay in one place and immigrants chase the funding?

[Bridget Foster]

That's a very difficult question.

In reality, our funding has increased very modestly, but then so have the number of people coming here. I think what's even more telling is that more and more people are staying in this province.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

In your opinion, do the immigrants in one province have less value than the immigrants in another province?

[Megan Morris]

No, of course, that's not the case.

We need to ensure that we sustain important infrastructure, so that has to be taken into consideration when there are cuts.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Would you like to comment on this? In Ontario immigrant funding was on track to be $1,000, and this was more than for immigrant funding in other provinces like Newfoundland. What do you feel about the request by agencies from Ontario to maintain and expand their special treatment? Do you think that some provinces should have special treatment?

[Megan Morris]

I'm not certain that we would really want to comment on that. It's very difficult. The situation is so very different in Ontario than it is in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

It's interesting that lately--

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

This is your final question, Mr. Shory. I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Lately, we were accused of decisions being made for political reasons. I don't know if you are aware of any Conservative MP in Newfoundland?

[Bridget Foster]

I'm sorry, we couldn't quite understand you. Could you repeat the question?

[Devinder Shory, Conservative, Calgary Northeast, AB]

Yes. We are accused of making decisions for political reasons. Are you aware of any Conservative MP in Newfoundland?