Citizenship and Immigration Committee on June 13th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

There were a number of amendments by the government and a number of amendments by the opposition that were distributed. We had no idea whether those amendments would be proceeded with or not. They were suggested amendments and they were distributed in advance. I recall specifically that the government amendments were distributed in advance so that the opposition could see them. Similarly, the opposition members reciprocated and distributed their amendments. But I am standing by what I said because the amendments were never formally moved, none of them, and therefore it's inappropriate to debate something that hasn't happened. I'm going to stick by that, and if you're going to continue on, I'm going to move on.

That's my ruling.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I just have a point. I know there were other speakers on the list, and once again we've continued the practice that—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Where are we?

On another point of order, we still have Ms. Freeman, and then that's it.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Actually, it was on the same point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

On this point of order, yes.

Have you finished, Ms. Sitsabaiesan?

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I will say that....

Sure, I'll finish for now.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Freeman.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Chair, based on what I'm going to say, it's not necessarily a question of whether the amendments were moved or not, but whether or not the committee operated under the assumption that they would be moved.

Actually, based on the testimony from March 21, when Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Jason Kenny came, there were two places in his brief in which he identified issues with the bill that he had serious concerns with, and he strongly urged this committee—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Ms. Freeman, I've admitted that.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Yes. Now, I do have a point; I'm getting to my point.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I told you that. You're repeating what I've said.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

No, I'm—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I simply said that if there are no facts presented to this committee now, when formal motions have been made to amend the proceedings, then I'm not going to allow committee members to discuss something that never happened.

[Mylène Freeman, NDP, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

All right, Chair. Then I cannot prove that a formal motion was made at this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Ms. Sitsabaiesan, you're back on the floor.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I am looking once again at O’Brien and Bosc on page 1047, under “Practice”, and at Standing Order 1, which is that when there are not clear rules stipulated we follow common practice in this place, whether it's in this committee or other committees or in the House. You, as chair, allowed debate to occur—not debate, but discussion, I will call it—on amendments that weren't officially moved at that time; allowed for witnesses—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

I'm sorry. You're putting words in my mouth.

Quite frankly, I have ruled on this in the past. The sole reason.... It's inappropriate to say that members haven't been present, but quite frankly, some members didn't hear that ruling, and we therefore went through this whole exercise because of that. It was out of courtesy.

I've already ruled that I will not allow debate on amendments that have never been made—end of story.

If you're going to continue, I'm going to move on.

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

No, respectfully, Mr. Chair, you have made a ruling, a while back, but this is new evidence that I have presented to you, and with new evidence—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Are you saying that I made a ruling that we could debate amendments?

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'm sorry...?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Are you telling me that I made a ruling that we could debate amendments?

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

What are you saying?

[Rathika Sitsabaiesan, NDP, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'm saying that you made a ruling.... I'm saying the same thing you just said. You said that you had made a ruling that the topic of amendments was off the table because they were not moved.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Yes, I did that. I have allowed what we're doing now out of courtesy to Madame Groguhé.