Evidence of meeting #18 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was woman.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Director General, Espace féminin arabe
Are you talking about a temporary resident visa?
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
People have to live together. I think the period in question is two years.
5:05 p.m.
Director General, Espace féminin arabe
That is the condition to grant them permanent residency?
5:05 p.m.
Director General, Espace féminin arabe
That is quite a delicate situation. If you decide you do not want the other person around, it is easy to create conditions that will lead to their expulsion. So I think that matter has to be considered with great care. I would personally bring in more criteria, for instance mandatory training and information sessions that would have to be taken, somewhat comparable to a program of courses in school.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Okay. We have two “no's”and one “maybe”.
The point I really want to get at is that I agree with Mr. Opitz that the conditions of abuse you describe are horrendous. I'm not quite sure how common it is, but to the extent that it exists, it's terrible. I totally agree with Mr. Opitz.
That brings me to Ms. Mandani and Ms. Muinuddin. You put a lot of weight upon training and the teaching of skills. Now, if the women are living in the conditions they describe, they won't even be allowed to go out to learn those skills. It sounds as though they are living like slaves.
Is that an issue for you, that some of the women you want to teach finance and skills to are unable because of their family situation to take those lessons, or are they generally free to do so?
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Reh'ma Community Services
We feel that there are cultural and language barriers, and there are employment issues as well. Definitely there have to be training programs relevant to the job market, because our goal is to get them financially independent.
Again there is a catch-22 situation, which is, if they do not have permanent resident status, then how do they work? How do they become financially independent?
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
But that's a different issue. I think we all agree—or at least I do, speaking for myself—that it's a good idea to teach them skills and financial independence, for all of the reasons you give. But if they are living in a state of near slavery, they might not be able to participate in that training.
My question is, is this an issue you confront with any frequency in your training programs, or is it not a major issue?
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Reh'ma Community Services
It is an issue when culture plays a role, when women feel that the man is a breadwinner, that's an issue. Again, we can't say that all the women who are sponsored by their spouses are living in slavery. We will not make that statement. We have not seen that. There are pretty liberal husbands also, who believe in equality, so.....
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON
Okay. I certainly wasn't making that statement either.
Ms. Rosenberger, you paint such a dire picture. I'm wondering how common it is. Of the women you see, would there be a substantial proportion who would not be allowed to take training programs because their husbands don't let them? How bad is it, or how frequent is the badness?
5:10 p.m.
Manager, Counselling Services, DIVERSEcity Community Resources Society
Keep in mind that we're sharing with you experiences from our counselling programs, which are called stopping the violence and children who witness abuse. The only women we are seeing are the ones who have been through this process. We're not seeing those who are coming for language classes or those who are coming to our skills training centres. We have those services at DIVERSEcity, but in our department, what we see are the women and the families who are in crisis.
Among the experiences we share, this is quite common for our clients. As to whether it's the norm in these communities and cultures, I would say most definitely not. I agree that the majority of women and the majority of marriages are based on mutual respect and a mutual equality, but what we're looking at are those in which there is serious danger to the woman and she does not have the resources, the language, or the cultural understanding or cultural support to get herself out of that situation into either a transition house—
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Tilson
Thank you very much.
Mr. Daniel, assuming the bells are ringing at 5:15, you have until the bells ring.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, witnesses. I appreciate the opportunity to ask a few questions.
It seems to me that this whole situation is beyond just the questions we're asking. In many of these circumstances, it's culturally ingrained that you have polygamy, you have forced marriages, you have all of these things. So just to say that we have posted on the website or have given some paperwork saying that this is the case is not really going to crack the thing.
Are those who are forced into marriage situations really understanding their rights with respect to forced marriages, do you think?
5:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Reh'ma Community Services
We haven't yet dealt with a forced marriage case, but I trust in the principle that there has to be an evidence-based study to find out how many cases there are of forced marriages, polygamy, marriage of convenience, marriage of fraud, all those cases, and do a policy analysis to determine whether, if conditional permanent residence is a blanket policy, it will cover all of that.
With this policy as well, there will still continue to be fraud, marriages of convenience. We had somebody saying, “If I go to India and get married, I will get X in dowry.” There is also the dowry issue, which we know of.
Basically, we are saying that this blanket policy may not curtail or completely eradicate forced marriage or polygamy or all of those issues. It could be the policy that one person be eligible to sponsor only one spouse; that is a policy that could be looked into.
5:15 p.m.
Director General, Espace féminin arabe
I would like to come back to the matter of temporary residency.
In order to obtain Canadian citizenship you have to pass a test that among other things asks questions about Canadian history and geography. Why should we not also pass a test on Canadian culture and attitudes in order to obtain one's status as a resident? Both men and women would first have to take some mandatory training sessions.
According to me, it is very important that people understand the situation. If that training were obligatory, husbands who do not want their wives to leave the house would be forced to let them out so that they could come and take this training. Do not forget that parental violence is perpetuated by the children, who see and then follow these models, these examples.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON
But that really begs the question, is any of that going to affect them, given that these are some of their fundamental beliefs; given that they are already embracing these things as part of their culture and their religion, and we are now about to impose something that changes some of their fundamentals.
Does that make sense?
5:15 p.m.
Director General, Espace féminin arabe
To immigrate to another country is a choice and a privilege. One chooses another way of life, a new life and more open, broader horizons. There are also responsibilities that go with that choice. One of them is that you have to adapt. Believe me, immigrants who have had the courage to emigrate have enough strength of character to adapt. However, you have to give them the necessary tools.
I think that the community organization networks can accomplish a lot of things. Unfortunately, the financial support the federal government gives them to do so is not adequate.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON
You have raised the issue of tools.
This is a question for all of you, so hopefully you will get a few seconds to answer.
What tools can we ensure our officers have in their toolbox to identify cases of forced marriage?
Does anybody want to take it up first? Maybe DIVERSEcity, since you haven't spoken to me.
5:15 p.m.
Manager, Counselling Services, DIVERSEcity Community Resources Society
When you say officers, do you mean immigration officers?
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Joe Daniel Conservative Don Valley East, ON
Yes. How do they make an assessment to identify whether it's a forced marriage? One thing could be that if the person they're marrying is under age 16, it would suggest something like that. But are there any other things that you can think of that can help us with this?
Ms. Mandani.
5:15 p.m.
Executive Director, Reh'ma Community Services
Well, the woman can be asked individually or interviewed by the officer asking whether she is being forced to get married.
Again, the age criterion should be that she be about 18 years of age, at a point at which she feels mature enough to speak.