Thank you.
Evidence of meeting #45 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ircc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #45 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ircc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
Both of you were here in the last hour as well. If you listened to the whole thing, you know it's a human factor. People, clients, come to the MP's office because we treat them as humans, we sympathize with them, we listen to them, and we act and react.
Do you think we have a disconnect at the call centre? The clients would look like something like this, for example, while the management and the call centre people may be different. They don't understand that side of the equation. What can be done to take some of the burden away from the MP's office?
5:10 p.m.
Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
I monitor the call centre quality assurance reports year after year. I can say if lawyers had that quality assurance outcome, that monthly disbarment list would be significantly lengthier. The call centre is sensitive, culturally and linguistically, and they are now patient. That's not the issue.
The key issue is that the members of Parliament have been pushed into a corner, under-resourced, and placed as goalie to IRCC's problem. The only advice that I can offer, as I have offered in the past—20 years in the past—is to review a British television series called Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister.
5:10 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
5:15 p.m.
Voices
Oh, oh!
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
With regard to the cost analysis, the IRCC spends huge money out there.
If both of you were the immigration minister for the day, the week, or the month, what changes would you bring to the table for call centres or.... You understand things from both sides.
What would you do, David? Let's start with you.
5:15 p.m.
Counsel, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
First of all, I think you talked about humanizing the experience. Too often, although people haven't been hung up on, they come away feeling as though they have been. Maybe they asked one question, they got an unsatisfactory answer, and then there was sort of silence from the other side, indicating that it was time to go.
I've spoken to this already. That's an issue of tone, training, and script. Especially when you consider that people are maybe interacting with the Canadian government for the first time, that should not be their first experience. That's my first point.
5:15 p.m.
Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
Well, I would adopt the Quebec model for immigrant investor immigration. The challenge is bad apples on the ground in case-specific immigrant investments. The Quebec government doesn't have the time and resources to micromanage; instead it manages the dealers. It allows quota to dealers based on the quality level of those investor files. It motivates the dealers to motivate their agents to select good cases. By “good cases”, I mean legitimate.
The same could happen if the minister were to say to the regulatory authorities, “Okay, we're going to hive off some service delivery” to your members. “You, regulator, are going to ensure that quality assurance is positive.” Alternatively, IRCC could, via computer, monitor the quality assurance of specific practitioners and cut access when something's loopy, pending resolution of an investigation.
That's how you do it at the lowest cost.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
I asked this question of the previous panel. Personally I know some of the files, because we—
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
What would you do if the file was right but something was missing, a very small item? What would you do so the guy wouldn't have to pay the money again or he wouldn't have to get back into the queue? What would you suggest?
5:15 p.m.
Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
What we do daily is request reconsideration. We do it electronically.
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
5:15 p.m.
Liberal
Julie Dzerowicz Liberal Davenport, ON
Thank you so much.
Because I have only five minutes, I'm going to ask five questions and leave it to both of you to decide what you would like to respond to.
First, you've talked about artificial intelligence, Mr. Kurland. Do you have a specific recommendation around that as we're modernizing our client services?
Second, Mr. Nurse, you have reminded us that with a modernized immigration system, you want to leave a space for the role of lawyers. Could you be more specific about what your recommendation is?
Third, part of this client modernization is looking at third party suppliers for visa offices and security. Do you have any recommendations as to what that would look like and how we can modernize that?
Fourth, private companies could take over part of the processing. Who does this well?
Fifth, we've talked about the CRA model, but does any country do it well, that we should model ourselves after?
Thank you.
5:15 p.m.
Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
In reverse order, here are my answers.
Yes, the United States does it well. They have a wonderful electronic system, from appointments right down the line.
As for the service providers, I would make no additions and no deletions. We got that one right.
Do you want to kick those two?
5:15 p.m.
Counsel, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
Yes.
You asked about the role or the space for lawyers. I think that IRCC sometimes does not design things to facilitate collaboration between IRCC, the client, and the lawyer involved.
For example, using the online portal for authorized representatives, I can create applications, but I can't share an individual application or a view of that application with a client. I've had clients say they would love to see it. I say, “I can't do it.” At least under the previous system, if I searched or viewed, I'd see all my applications. I can't disclose that information to an individual client.
5:20 p.m.
Counsel, McInnes Cooper, As an Individual
Sorry.
Just to finish the point, they need to see lawyers as partners in effective client service.
That's what I'm asking for.
5:20 p.m.
Lawyer and Policy Analyst, As an Individual
This goes to the heart, because the artificial intelligence system is the new lungs, heart, and circulatory system for the modernized system. I see a collision between the government's commitment to transparency and consultation and what IRCC has done to this committee. I have no idea how they did not disclose in a timely manner a material, relevant operational design point that is the highway to the future of a modernized immigration system.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
