Evidence of meeting #53 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iccrc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
I'm done?
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
—under the statute in order to have harmonized regulation between the feds and the provinces.
Thank you.
Liberal
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses coming forward to make the system better.
Mr. Barker, how many complaints a year do you get, on average?
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar and Corporate Secretary, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
The council receives approximately 300 complaints a year, split between complaints and allegations against members and those against non-members, which we refer on to CBSA.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
I'm not kidding.
I'm going to forward you a video. It seems like a very genuine video, and I couldn't sleep after seeing it. It's not a month old; this is from this weekend alone.
The perception out there is different from what we're hearing from the panel here. The perception out there is that nobody is doing anything about these crooked consultants. The ghost consultants exist right here in this country—the lawyers, the consultants—say: “Bring me a case, do the paperwork, I sign off on it, 50-50.”
You haven't heard this one, Mr. Barker?
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar and Corporate Secretary, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
I have heard of that. The jurisdiction of the council is only, as the committee has already heard, to discipline and regulate its own members. We have no lawful authority to go after individuals, whether in Canada or outside of Canada, who are not regulated by the council. That is one issue.
But I share your sentiment about unauthorized persons acting. We have no jurisdiction.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
If anybody complained to you, with all due respect, who got ripped off for $10,000....
Every complaint I've had started at $10,000, up to $40,000. I didn't see the money change, but this is what the people bring you. Sometimes you look at somebody's face—we're pretty good, we're dealing with the public—and you see which is a genuine case and which is not a genuine case.
There's nothing we can do.
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar and Corporate Secretary, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
If the council receives a complaint and we determine that the person is not a licensed consultant or member of a law society, with that complainant's permission, we prepare the information that we have available to us and forward it to CBSA for their consideration.
In many cases, the CBSA does work with us co-operatively, because part of that prosecution is obtaining, in our case, a registrar's certificate to confirm that the person is not licensed and authorized through ICCRC. That is used towards an arrest and prosecution.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
How many of these complaints get convictions from this? Do you have any numbers, any idea?
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar and Corporate Secretary, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
I'm sorry, I don't.
I am aware of certain very specific cases where I have been asked to provide a certificate, and a number of months or a year later the investigating officer at CBSA has contacted me, thanked the council for its assistance in the prosecution, and advised of that outcome. We do not receive regular updates in terms of actual convictions.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
What would you do in this case? Let me get to the video. It's in Punjabi. It's six or seven minutes long, and I'm going to give you something that's in it.
This person came to Canada in 2015 and got hooked up with East West Immigration, something like that, in B.C. He gave them a written contract for $10,000. When the $10,000 was switched over, they said, “You have to go to India. When you arrived here, your medical failed.” So you go back. He went back to India, and he did the medical as per the video. They said you have to give me another $3,000 for this one. He sent another $3,000, taken on his credit card. When he came back, he said, “I'm back.” They said, “You've run out of your money.” Then this real person tried to complain. They said if you complain, we will do what we have to do—bodily harm. This guy in the video talks about committing suicide. Every single penny was taken.
What do you do? What do I tell people like this? They come to us looking for help. Where do we go? It's all of us here. I'm not talking about me alone; it's all of us here.
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar and Corporate Secretary, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
Specifically, if this particular individual is not a licensed consultant, a ghost, who is threatening this individual, again, with information of that nature that comes to the council, we would seek permission from that individual to refer the complaint to CBSA. Otherwise, if they will not grant us permission, then we advise them to contact CBSA or local law enforcement themselves, and we'll provide the contact information that we have on file.
Conservative
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar and Corporate Secretary, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
The person is a licensed consultant.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
I'm not the expert, but that's what it seems. His address is crystal clear. He videotaped him, how much money was received, how much more they were asking, a written contract. He put it in the video.
It's really shameful that these things happen here right under our noses.
If there is any ghost consultant, what do you do with them? Is there anything at all?
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Registrar and Corporate Secretary, Immigration Consultants of Canada Regulatory Council
With ghost consultants, again, we do not have legal authority to go after or prosecute people who are not licensed by us. We provide information to CBSA for their consideration and potential prosecution.
Conservative
Bob Saroya Conservative Markham—Unionville, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Jade, you talk about “small fraud”. In your mind, what's a small fraud?
Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Association of Professional Immigration Consultants
Unfortunately, I misused the English word.
I just repeated what the CBSA representative who was here and was very clear.... She spoke about risk assessment. They move forward on the fraud—and this was not my saying it, but it was said before this committee—and if there is enough evidence and they have a scheme.... We have four big cases that the CBSA has followed. However, if there are just one or two cases—and it was not me who said that; the representative was here and I'm just paraphrasing it—with an individual, they probably would not pursue it.
That was not me, Mr. Chair.
Liberal
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much.
First, it seems there are some internal issues with the ICCRC. Hopefully, these will get resolved. I'm interested in this question because in the case of the ghost consultants—where there seems to be quite a problem—if they are brought to your attention, they are referred to CBSA. The CBSA was here to tell us they don't investigate individual cases. Hence, they don't go anywhere. Isn't that the case?
I'm seeing people nodding. Can I get a yes from everybody that this is the understanding?
