Citizenship and Immigration Committee on April 3rd, 2017

[Jennifer Stone]

If I may, first I would love to address your point. Thank you for making it about legal aid being a provincially mandated issue. My understanding is that this is a bit of a problem, and it might be one for this committee to turn their minds to because immigration and refugee law is a federal matter.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Oh, yes.

[Jennifer Stone]

I think the provinces really struggle with that. The federal-provincial transfer for legal aid funding is inadequate to meet the needs of immigration and refugee law, and there are a few recent articles in the Toronto Star speaking specifically to the growing backlog of immigration and refugee cases in Ontario.

[The Chair, Liberal, Borys Wrzesnewskyj]

Thank you. There always is the opportunity to make additional submissions if there isn't enough time to answer some of the questions.

Ms. Kwan.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to all the witnesses for your appearances today.

I have a standard question that I would like to ask. I will start with Ms. Stone. On the issue of affordability, I get it. A lawyer is really expensive for pretty well anything, even though I recognize the training that you bring and therefore the cost. That being said, in this instance, would you agree with a specific fee structure that would apply for types of services? For example, if you did an application that would require x number of forms, it would cost this much money. This is a fee structure that would apply whether it was done by a lawyer or by an immigration consultant.

[Jennifer Stone]

In respect of the Inter Clinic Immigration Working Group, whose position I'm bringing forward today, we have not considered that question. I'll just say it's not from the group I'm representing. Certainly, though, it seems like a practical piece of probably a multi-point solution including addressing the precarity that the previous witnesses spoke to, which creates the incentive to have to seek out these services in the first place.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Amlani, I would like a quick answer on the fee structure.

[Alli Amlani]

You want an answer on the same question?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Yes.

[Alli Amlani]

Mr. Sarai already addressed that issue. There is a system—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

No, my question for you is, would you agree to a specific fee structure?

[Alli Amlani]

On a prescribed fee, no, I wouldn't. It won't work, because there is already a system.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Jain.

[Ravi Jain]

I don't think this kind of thing happens in other areas of law, and there are lots of different lawyers with different experience who will charge different amounts. The issue is about protecting the public, and lawyers aren't likely to work with these ghost consultants. There are all kinds of different lawyers available who can help.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

You talked about a typical fee. What is a typical fee?

[Ravi Jain]

For what kind of matter?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

In the case we just heard about someone who has come in to make an application for a live-in care-worker, what would be a typical fee structure for that?

[Ravi Jain]

If a lawyer saw someone who was a live-in caregiver who came to Canada knowing what a live-in caregiver makes and wanted to help that person, they could do it for free. Lots of lawyers do pro bono work. They could also do it for a few thousand dollars. No one is going to charge $10,000 to file—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Sorry, I'm just trying to get at what a typical fee structure is. I get it that there are pro bono lawyers. Back in the day—I'm not a lawyer—before I got into politics, as a student I worked at legal aid, first as a student, then later on also as a student, actually. Pro bono law is really hard to get in my province, whether it's for immigration or for other areas. We literally have to scrape, beg, and bribe—all kinds of stuff to make it happen. So I get it, there are people who do this, but in reality it's really hard.

[Ravi Jain]

I get what you're saying.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I'm going to move on to another—

[Ravi Jain]

Can I just answer your question? Immigration lawyers go into this because they care about people. My point is that there is no evidence that immigration lawyers are charging exorbitant fees.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

No, I'm not suggesting that. You talked about a typical fee. I just want to get a sense of a typical fee, that's all, so that we get a sense about the affordability of it. Is there a typical fee? What I'm hearing from you is that there isn't.

[Ravi Jain]

It would depend. I would say it would be maybe $3,000 for a permanent residence application—to do the whole thing including family members back home, maybe in the Philippines, and all of the forms and everything. Around $3,000 would be something you might charge for a live-in caregiver application.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

On the ICCRC structure that is set up for regulating consultants, we've heard all kinds of different information. Can I get a quick sense of this from you, Ms. Stone? In your practice or your work, have you heard from clients and people who have come in to say that they've run into problems with their consultant and went to ICCRC? Were they assisted with their complaint? Can you share with us some information on what you know?