Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 29th, 2022

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

You would like to be able to talk to the department to find out why that is how things are done.

[Christian Blanchette]

We would like to be able to call someone to discuss that.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Exactly. Thank you very much, Mr. Blanchette.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

We will now proceed to Ms. Gazan.

Ms. Gazan, you have six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

It's such an honour to be sitting on this committee today for this very important topic.

My first question is for Mr. Worden.

I'm very pleased that we are addressing what many people have been speaking about, which is the level of racism at the IRCC. This is a critical study.

I know in your report you pointed to specific examples, including from some respondents who noted widespread internal references to certain African countries as “the dirty thirty” and stereotyped Nigerians as particularly untrustworthy.

Of course, those stereotypes and comments are unacceptable and completely abhorrent and deeply troubling.

In light of this, do you support the creation of an ombudsman position at the IRCC to act as an independent oversight, and what do you see this position's mandate would be?

[Craig Worden]

I really do need to speak from the perspective of the research participants, the folks who volunteered to participate in the focus groups rather than my own personal opinion. That's what we do in the world of research.

I would say that there was strong.... Not only was establishing just such an ombudsman suggested by many participants, but it was supported by many participants as well.

Along with that was the emphatic requirement that this role be permanent, that it have teeth, that it can hold people accountable, that it can protect those who come forward and take action on what they come forward with.

Right now the perception in the department is that there is really no clear process to report complaints about instances of racism that is effective and that holds people accountable and protects those who come forward. They see a new ombudsman being established as solving that problem.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Building on the very clear, systemic racism at the IRCC, one of the other things you noted in your report was racial bias in hiring. We know that it's not just for individuals who need access to the immigration system; racial bias extends even further to the hiring practices.

What changes do you feel need to be made to make sure that this kind of racial bias in hiring is thwarted?

[Craig Worden]

On that front, what we heard from research participants—apologies if I'm repeating myself—was that they wanted to see this concept of “best fit”.... We were unsure of whether this was an official or an unofficial requirement when considering hiring and promotions at IRCC. It was believed that it was a concept that had great influence over hiring and promotion; whether this person would be a “good fit” for the department or the unit within the department.

The problem with that is that most of the senior staff tend to be non-racialized, and they will tend to hire and promote those who are non-racialized as well.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Yes. It sounds a bit like groupthink to me.

My last question is for Ms. Ruiz. You indicated that you did not see the Chinook as an e-tool, as the government calls it, but as an AI software. What makes it an AI and why is this problematic?

What should be done with the software tools like this to avoid discrimination? It seems like at the IRCC, it's not only people who discriminate; even the tools that they put in place discriminate.

[Arlene Ruiz]

IRCC indicates that it's not an AI system, but I strongly believe that it is. The algorithms are set up so that applications are assessed in bulk, from what I understand about this system. There is clearly a big problem with that, because, as I mentioned earlier, I strongly believe that applications—as they come in—should be assessed by a human. This Chinook system was created by a group of IRCC workers who have come with their own beliefs. I think that has largely influenced how these applications are assessed.

There has to be a clear transparency from the IRCC with this system. You cannot even find out the result or the details of the refusal unless you request an ATIP. That's very troubling and time-consuming.

I have submitted ATIP requests for a number of my clients and it takes a good chunk of time—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Ms. Ruiz. Your time is up.

We will now go to our second round of questioning. We will have three minutes each for Mr. Genuis and Ms. Lalonde, and one and a half minutes each for Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe and Ms. Gazan.

Mr. Genuis, you have three minutes.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses today in the first and second panels.

It seems to me that there are certain respects in which our immigration system discriminates on the basis of income quite transparently. In fact, it's by design, where people who don't have enough money to pay for their needs while they're here as a student might not be able to come. It seems that the assessments they make about whether someone's likely to return home are also based on income.

I'd like to hear the witnesses share a bit about how we can disaggregate discrimination on the basis of income and discrimination on the basis of race. In some of the country comparisons we're doing, there are differences of race and religion, but there are also differences of income level. It might be more useful to look at comparisons between countries of similar cultural, racial or religious makeup, but with significant differences in income, and see how those played out.

I'd be curious for any of the witnesses to comment on this. How can we disaggregate questions of discrimination on the basis of income from discrimination on the basis of race or religion?

[Christian Blanchette]

Mr. Genuis, it can be very difficult to do that.

I'll give you an example.

There's a requirement that candidates from Africa provide their biometric data before their applications can be processed. These candidates have to travel across almost the entire African continent, just to reach the one service centre where they can get their biometric information. That continues to be a fundamental barrier to accessing Canada, whether you're wealthy or you have limited means.

It would be inconceivable that here in Canada, there would be just one service centre, located in Toronto, where people could go to get their biometric data. It's a situation that can have repercussions, and it can create cultural, ethnic or economic bias.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Did the gentleman from Pollara want to weigh in on that?

Specifically, what I'm trying to understand is how we can identify the presence or magnitude of racial discrimination when it's mixed in with other data points. One way might be to compare outcomes for, let's say, Brazil and Cuba. They have different income levels, but they are ethnoculturally similar. Maybe we can compare wealthier Muslim-majority countries in the Middle East with less wealthy countries.

Can we find out more about the magnitude of racial and religious discrimination by those kinds of comparisons?

[Craig Worden]

The previous witnesses' comments are spot on. It's hard to disaggregate these things. From the perspective of our research study, that was outside of our scope. We were speaking to employees about their experiences and their opinions about instances of racism within the department as employees but also in terms of the execution of policies.

The impact and the relevance of income didn't really come up—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Worden.

The time is up for Mr. Genuis.

Ms. Lalonde, you have three minutes.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the witnesses here today.

My question is for Mr. Worden.

It seems to me that data privacy is an important aspect of this research. Whenever I participate in this type of study, I'm told not to worry, that my identity will be kept confidential.

A fundamental pillar of public opinion research is to maintain the anonymity of participants. It's a success of any research company and it protects the privacy of the respondents so that they do not reveal any information that can identify them.

Can you speak to the importance of maintaining anonymity when it comes to public opinion research?

[Craig Worden]

Absolutely. It is the core principle of all research that we do at Pollara and within the industry at large. The promise of anonymity is one that we make to all research respondents and it is held sacred. It is something that we are absolutely committed to, and we were in this study.

When writing up the report for this, our moderators were quite careful. There were some things we simply couldn't include in this report, because they might reveal the respondents' identity, so we were very careful with how we wrote up this report.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

You're suggesting that if the data were requested, it might call into question the promise of confidentiality and raise concerns.

[Craig Worden]

That's right.

We would never share anything. In fact, these focus groups were not recorded. All that we have are the moderator's notes, and we are not sharing the moderator's notes. All that we are reporting or sharing is the actual report.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Blanchette, there were indeed a lot of very troubling aspects, and I think we mentioned them in our other motion concerning international students.

Could you tell us more about the discrepancy between what we're hearing from politicians and what public servants are actually doing when it comes to processing student visas?

[Christian Blanchette]

At the federal level, they say that our immigration policy is a way to address the labour shortage, that our demographics are such that we won't be able to fill the labour gap here in Canada, that Quebec has an extremely low level of unemployment and that regions like Trois‑Rivières are at full employment.

So even though public policy is that immigration is the solution, there's—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Blanchette. The time is up for Ms. Lalonde.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for one and a half minutes.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here, since this will be my last chance to speak to them.

Mr. Worden, what I understand from what you said is that there might be people working at IRCC who are racist, that we're aware of it, but that nobody is being disciplined.

Is that what we should infer from what you said?

[Craig Worden]

We heard from the focus group participants that they witnessed reports of racism and they felt that these people they had reported on never received permanent or very stringent punishment for their actions.