Citizenship and Immigration Committee on May 17th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 24 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation, and in light of the recommendations from health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on Thursday, November 25, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, all those attending the meeting in person are to maintain two-metre physical distancing and must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is also highly recommended that the mask be worn at all times, including when seated. Those attending must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the provided hand sanitizer in the room. Please refrain from coming to the room if you are symptomatic.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute, and your camera must be on.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, May 4, 2022, the committee will consider Bill C-242, an act to amend the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act with regard to temporary resident visas for parents and grandparents.

I would like to welcome Mr. Kyle Seeback, the sponsor of this private member's bill, who will begin with five minutes of opening remarks, followed by rounds of questioning.

Welcome, Mr. Seeback, it's great to have you presenting Bill C-242. I've been part of this committee since 2015, and this is the first time we've had a private member's bill come before the committee.

The floor is yours. You have five minutes, and then members would love to ask you some questions.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I've been a member of Parliament for seven years, and this is the first time I've had a piece of legislation come to committee, so I'm pretty excited about it.

This is a bill to enhance the super visa. Of course, the super visa came out in November 2011 under the Conservative government. It's a multiple-entry visa to allow parents and grandparents to travel to Canada to reunite with their families here. The original super visa allows the family to stay for two years over 10 years. You have to pass a health check, and you have to purchase private insurance. The sponsoring family has to have a minimum amount of income for you to qualify to come.

It's a very popular tool used to reunite families here in Canada. Over the years, I have certainly heard criticism of a number of aspects of it. Number one is with respect to the amount of time. If someone here in Canada has a child, even someone who is working can have more than a year off to help raise that child. If perhaps a parent—a mother or a father—wanted to come to help with that and they stayed for a year or maybe a year and a half, the time on that visa has almost expired. The two years are almost up. I don't think two years is long enough. A family could be having multiple children. There, again, I think the two years is certainly not long enough.

You can, of course, apply for an extension. I recognize that, but given the demands at IRCC with respect to various applications, why do we want people to have to submit another application that has to be processed for there to be an extension? I think five years is a very reasonable amount of time over a 10-year period.

Someone could come, for example, for five months, a year or 10 years and spend significant amounts of time with their children and their grandchildren. This is a significant boon to the family, not just for spending time with their family, but the studies really show that there's an economic boost to a family when they have a parent or grandparent come and stay. Maybe they take an extra shift at work because they have some extra help at home.

I think the time extension is reasonable and will be well used by Canadian families.

The second part of my bill is going to allow for the purchase of insurance from a country outside of Canada. I've had a lot of questions on why I would want to do that. I'm just going to briefly talk about this.

Purchasing health insurance for the duration of the stay of the super visa can be quite expensive. It can be between $1,700 and $4,600 a year for someone in their early seventies with no pre-existing medical condition. That's a significant cost to a family—especially a new family.

What I see is that this would create competition. It would also allow someone to purchase the insurance in the currency of the country they're coming from, which I think can also make it more affordable.

People are asking how they will be able to determine what a valid insurance company is, so the Canadian taxpayer isn't left on the hook for a hospital bill, for example. To that, I say that right now we pre-approve doctors to give those medical clearance certificates when someone is coming to this country. If we can actually take the time to determine which doctors we should trust to do these certificates, surely we can find some health insurance companies around the world in most countries that have proper assets and all these other kinds of things. That's why I put in here that it is “approved by the Minister”. This doesn't mean you can go to any insurance company anywhere in the world. I'm encouraging the minister to set up a framework for the ground rules for when an insurance company would qualify, so that people can purchase insurance outside of the country.

The final part of the bill is asking for the government to reduce the low-income cut-off. The reason I ask for it is this: The view that bringing a parent or a grandparent to stay with you is an economic burden is wrong. What I actually found, from doing a little bit of research, is that when a parent or grandparent comes, it enhances the economic well-being of that family. It does that on a number of levels. It can be that they're providing some reduction of day care costs because the parent or grandparent is there to help with the family. It can provide opportunities for the child here in Canada because the parents can take an extra shift at work. They could have some extra time to be able to go out and get additional education.

I'm looking forward to your questions, and I hope that we will pass this bill out of committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Seeback.

We will now go to our round of questioning. We will start with Mr. Benzen.

Mr. Benzen, you will have six minutes for your round of questioning. You can please go ahead.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Seeback, for being here today. Congratulations on bringing forward this great bill, your first private member's bill.

Just in general, can you elaborate a bit more on why you brought forward this bill? Why did you pick this as your first private member's bill?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Originally, I represented a riding in Brampton. It was the largest riding by population in the country, and it was incredibly diverse. What I've learned through my time in Brampton, and even in my riding now in different cultural communities, is the absolute importance of family and how important it is to have family be able to come and spend time with you.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

There was no interpretation, but I see that the problem has been resolved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Yes, please go ahead.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

It's the importance of having your family here. When I think about it, I was very fortunate. I was born here. My parents and grandparents were here, and I had lots of extended family. When you think about someone whose family decides to move their entire life—it doesn't matter from where—to come here and the challenges that are associated with that, whether that's trying to find employment or to learn a new culture and all these kinds of things, having the opportunity to have your family here really helps you through that transition.

Yes, of course, we do have a category of immigration where you can permanently bring your parents and grandparents here. We all know the challenges with that. There are a limited number of spaces and high demand. I'm not saying that the super visa will take that away, but I think it provides another avenue for families to spend a significant amount of time together, and we know the benefits of that.

Parents and grandparents pass on cultural knowledge to their children and grandchildren and, as I said, there are economic opportunities that happen. For me, Canada is a country of immigration, and we want to make that as positive an experience for new Canadians as possible, and that's really why I'm trying to enhance the super visa, so more parents can come and they can spend more time with their families.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

One of the big factors in your bill is to lower the income cut-off point. We know in Canada that, if you live in Toronto, it's very expensive compared to, say, living in Saskatoon. Should we look at the regional disparities in terms of the cost of living and how we can adjust that to make it more fair for where people are living and the costs they're facing?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I think it's challenging to try to determine that across the country. I'm not sure that I'd want there to be a patchwork of different income levels.

Look, I'll be very forthright. I think the income test for this category of immigration should be eliminated entirely. I just don't know that we're ready to do that yet. I don't believe there's a cost to having your parents or grandparents come and stay with you. I know that, when my parents have come to stay with me, it was not a significant increased cost in my household, and I think that's the same case for new Canadians. What we see over and over again, in fact, is that this is an economic gain for families that bring their parents or grandparents here.

Why are we suggesting that you have to have a certain amount of income in order to bring parents or grandparents here? I don't think it makes sense, and if we can't eliminate it, let's significantly reduce it, because the people who are affected the most by the LICO are not the family that's been here for 20 years and is well established. They are the new family that's been here for two or three years, and that's the time when they probably need family here the most. That's why I think we should reduce it.

[Bob Benzen, Conservative, Calgary Heritage, AB]

Since you introduced this bill, what response have you been getting from Canadians? What have you been hearing back? What are their thoughts on this bill? Are Canadians in general for this?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

The people I've talked to across my riding and across the country think it's a great bill. They really want the opportunity to make it easier for families to come and spend time together here in Canada.

Overwhelmingly, the response has been extraordinarily positive. Along the way, I've had many people suggest that the bill doesn't go far enough in a couple of aspects. I'm always open to people who want to make the bill better. The only concern I have heard is with respect to purchasing insurance from outside of Canada. I do believe that the bill presents a framework and that the minister can address all of those concerns by prescribing the qualifications that the insurance company has to have in order to be listed as an insurance company that you can purchase health insurance from.

This is a bill that I think all parties can support and all parties can feel good about because it's going to make it so much easier for families to spend time together, and they don't have to apply for a regular visa.

We all know too many stories where you can't get a parent here for the death of a child. They didn't make it to the funeral because they couldn't get the visa. This would help make sure that situations like that don't happen. I can't imagine if I couldn't go to my brother's funeral in the U.K. because I didn't get a visa. We want to fix things like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you, Mr. Seeback.

The time is up for Mr. Benzen. We will now proceed to Ms. Kayabaga.

Ms. Kayabaga, you have six minutes. Please begin.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to start by congratulating Mr. Seeback on the tabling of his PMB. I know that it's not an easy process, so congratulations, and welcome back to our committee.

I want to get back to the health insurance policy that you were talking about. We've also heard concerns that people have about procuring health insurance when they're coming to Canada. There is still a burden in verifying insurance from an international health insurance provider.

Can you comment on those concerns, what this bill does to address those issues and how we can make sure that people are not getting cheated while they're trying to get health insurance? I know you're trying to approach it in a way so that it can be affordable, but how do we know that people are not going to invest money in health insurance that's not going to turn up?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you for the question. I'm concerned with that as well. The last thing I want is for someone to come here having purchased insurance from elsewhere and find that the insurance actually isn't going to cover what it is that they have here.

The government has made it clear that Canadian insurance companies have to have certain assets, a certain policy that's in place. They prescribe what all those rules are. In order for a Canadian insurance company to have insurance that you can buy, there have to be certain qualifications. I think you can use those same qualifications to approve international insurance companies.

I commented briefly on this in my remarks. All across the globe right now, when you are coming to this country, whether it's through family reunification or parent and grandparent, you have to have a valid health check. You have to be in good health. Canada has gone around the world and said that these are the doctors you can go to. You can't just go to any doctor. You have to go to certain specific doctors who the government has determined are trustworthy and thinks will not be subject to influence and will give a valid health check. So—

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

I'm sorry. I don't mean to cut you off at all, but it's for the sake of time. Are you saying that it could be any health insurance that is also Canadian or just international?

On that point, what kind of safeguards would there be, and who would be in charge of putting in place these safeguards to make sure that there not a theft situation in that process?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

This would be approved by the minister.

I have faith—Conservative colleagues, don't attack me for this—that the government can actually do this. It has put in place a system for Canadian insurance companies, a system for doctors. I have faith that it can put in place a robust system that will allow for the purchase of insurance from countries around the world. I have faith that it can set up the parameters and do whatever investigations are necessary.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

On that same question—I apologize that I'm taking a lot of time on this, but your answers keep giving me more questions—when you say “approved by the minister”, do you foresee this being a predetermined list of international health providers who meet Canadian standards? Does such a list currently exist? What criteria do people need to be on that list?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Obviously, there's no current list of this. This bill was challenging to draft, because the super visa is mostly through ministerial instruction, and that's not something you can legislate, so I've had to try to nibble around the corners, I guess, for a way to do it. I'm putting the onus on the government and on the minister to set up the framework to make sure that there is valid insurance from other countries and that the Canadian health care system won't be on the hook from an insurance company that cannot pay.

Now, the minister may choose not to approve anyone. That's going to be the government's decision. I don't think that's the right decision. I think they can put the work into doing this and doing it properly because, as I said, if you can investigate doctors around the world to make sure they're legitimate, surely you can investigate billion-dollar insurance companies from countries around the world.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

You know that ministerial instructions can be created in a matter of weeks, whereas legislative changes can take years to finalize. Do you have any concerns around that?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Look, I don't know how quickly the government is going to move to set up this insurance framework. I hope they would do it expeditiously, because I think it's so important for Canadian families. Will it take a year, or will it take two years? It might, but if it does, in the end it will allow for the purchase of insurance from other countries, and I think it's worth the wait. I honestly do. We should get it right. The government should do the hard work necessary, but it will be so great for Canadian families.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

I think I have 30 seconds left for my last question.

The super visa has been popular since its introduction, with over 139,000 visas issued and an approval rate of approximately 80%. Considering the known success of this program, why did you choose this PMB? What differences are in this program other than what we already have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Your time is up.

We will now proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you will have six minutes. You can please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank my colleague Mr. Seeback for his initiative and I commend him for it. I'm very pleased that he is with us today.

I'm going to go back to the question Ms. Kayabaga asked about the process for setting up a framework for foreign insurers.

As I understand it, Bill C‑242 puts everything in the minister's hands in terms of setting up a framework for private insurers.

Is that correct?

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I don't think that I can draft those rules. I worked very hard with the drafters to try to come up with a solution, and we really couldn't. I don't have the resources of the government to go through and figure out all the things that need to be done. I think the fair thing to do is to put it back on the government to draft. Whatever those rules and requirements are going to be with respect to the insurance, they have the department. They have far more expertise than I do, and I think it's doable. Again, given that they are able to approve individual doctors, I think they can approve some large insurance companies from other countries.