Citizenship and Immigration Committee on Feb. 10th, 2022

[Luc Bussières]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Lalonde.

We have deployed significant resources. I must admit that, when we began recruiting internationally, in 2014, we were hoping to get results, but never to the extent of the results we have had. Now, 70% of our clientele is from abroad, almost exclusively from Africa. So we have had to come up with solutions as we went along, and one of them was to use our own students to provide mentorship. That way, we established a model where every newly arrived students is paired with someone else, who is also an African student, although that is not always the case. So the new student is mentored throughout their first year of studies and beyond that, if they want. So truly individual guidance is provided. In a small institution, we have about 300 students, more than 200 of whom come from Africa. A new family has been created, with new solutions for a new situation.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

What a great story! I am always impressed by this kind of stuff.

In your presentation, you said you would like to have more collaboration.

Could you briefly explain that to me, Mr. Bussières?

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry, Ms. Lalonde. Your time is up. Maybe you can go back to that in the second round.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, you have six minutes for your round of questioning. Please proceed.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses who are joining us today to participate in this extremely important study, which is especially close to my heart.

We are here to find solutions, as I told the previous witness panel, and we want to do that quickly because we want to be ready for the fall 2022 semester. That is why this study is a priority today. We must identify problems to be able to resolve them.

Mr. Cimon, you talked about one aspect of the problem in your presentation when you said that refusal rates for foreign students differed between anglophone institutions and francophone institutions.

Do you think that speaking French can be a negative factor, or does a combination of several factors explain this?

[Yan Cimon]

Our internal data does not indicate that language is a factor. What it does show is that there are difficulties related to intention, to the financial ability to undertake studies and to file presentation. That costs us about 1,000 African students per year. So those are students who cannot access the rigorous programs they are admitted into through processes that are also very rigorous. That is a significant loss for Quebec and for Canada.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Cimon.

Mr. Bussières, I will turn to you. You actually made me laugh earlier. Thank you for making me smile. That rarely happens to us in committees.

We are trying to find solutions, as I said before. We really want to change things. Since the beginning of the study, we have heard about the possibility of creating a position of immigration ombudsman. I don't know whether you have heard about that.

I will then ask Mr. Malette to answer the same question.

[Luc Bussières]

Yes, I have heard about it, including during the committee's early meetings on the topic. It is pretty easy to find consensus on that issue. The way I see it is that it would provide an additional outside perspective with an interest in respecting various types of fairness. We understand that this is a complex situation and that the IRCC could be overwhelmed by an increase in demand, as we are on our end. We are part of the problem, in a way. We manage a lot of files and we encourage many people to apply for a study permit. We then hope to get a return.

Earlier, I raised issues involving clarity, transparency and so on. If there was an ombudsman, someone would have a more objective perspective and could remind us, as a country, of our duties in that respect.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Malette, go ahead.

[Alain-Sébastien Malette]

I have not heard about the creation of an ombudsman position at the immigration department. That said, like my colleague, I believe that anything that can bring more clarity and transparency is essential. We will welcome any action toward achieving that.

As it has been said, we should not underestimate those students' impact on our communities and our universities. Those students are vital to our university's and of our community's survival.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Cimon, you said there was a discrepancy between the number of students admitted to Université Laval and the number of people who end up enrolling.

Are students who enrol in Université Laval but are refused by the IRCC after their enrolment given a refund if the semester has already begun?

[Yan Cimon]

International students who don't receive their study permit cannot continue their studies or come to Canada to do so.

I will give you an example. At Université Laval, the study permit approval rate for sub-Saharan Africa and North Africa varies between 20% and 29%. By comparison, 98% of French students have their application approved, but 66% of French students can enrol in the university.

For students from francophone Africa, the main challenge is that a number of them are extremely talented and have records that would be the envy of many educational institutions around the world, but we cannot welcome them, even if they have been admitted. We cannot welcome them because they have not obtained their study permit.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

If I have understood correctly, delays in IRCC processing result in those students going through terrible and unimaginable situations.

[Yan Cimon]

There are two aspects to what you are saying.

First, there are delays, which are indeed difficult to tolerate. Second, there are refusals, which are significant and are unfortunately often poorly documented.

It should be said that refusals related to financial evidence, for instance, would be easy to modulate. The financial requirement could be modulated based on a laboratory research assistant contract, for example, or based on the applicants' potential income as Canadians.

International students in Canada have the option to work a few hours a week. That should be considered in analyses of their financial resources.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Mr. Bussières, you talked about the lack of transparency.

Do you think the department's lack of transparency is currently the biggest problem?

[Luc Bussières]

Seen from the perspective of institutions like ours and of the people we are trying to serve, the applicants, that is the biggest problem. It is difficult to find solutions when we don't understand what the root of the problem is.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

Ms. Kwan, you will have six minutes. Please proceed.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

I'd like to build on the question that Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe asked about students who have been admitted. During the pandemic period, the IRCC determined that because of the processing delays, the students could start their studies abroad virtually and then afterwards could come to Canada to complete their studies.

Regarding those students who started their studies and later their applications were rejected, have you had that experience at your institution? In those instances, were those students able to complete their study virtually or have they had to stop?

Maybe I can start with Mr. Cimon.

[Yan Cimon]

Thank you.

At Université Laval, students who were denied their study permits as a result of the pandemic had already begun studying online. Université Laval has ways for students to continue their studies online so that they can earn credits and graduate.

One key reason why students choose our Canadian universities, and Université Laval in particular, is obviously the experience of attending classes, living on campus, socializing and networking with international and Canadian students.

These aspects are very appealing online, but not for all international students. A number of international students want the campus experience. International students who are working professionals in their home countries want the online experience.

You could say that there are different categories of students. There are those who are looking for an online experience and those who are looking for an in‑person experience.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

What I'm interested in knowing is whether or not the option for people to complete their study is there. What I'm hearing from you is yes, so I'll go to the other two witnesses to see whether or not their institutions offer the same.

I will go to Mr. Bussières first.

[Luc Bussières]

In our case, we didn't want to go down that road. Given the small size of our institution, we weren't able to ensure an online course offering that would have made it possible for students to complete their program afterwards.

Our specialty is normally in‑person courses for small groups of 25 people whom we work with for four years. We weren't in a position to go down that road and ensure a service offering afterwards.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Mr. Malette, go ahead.

[Alain-Sébastien Malette]

Again, we've adapted our offering to allow online and in-person presence. If you look at Africa, most of our students from French Africa are at the undergraduate level, which means a four-year degree, and those who started during the pandemic are probably finishing their second year online. There comes a point where we are definitely concerned about them coming to Canada and accessing the poststudy work rights and ultimately that experience. We are concerned about that, yes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

One thing we know is that IRCC offers a student direct stream that requires the applicant to hold to a $10,000 government bond for admission, but the government also introduced the Nigeria express program, which requires students to have $30,000 in their account for six months. There's a significant difference in that approach.

Do you think that's fair? Should the government harmonize this process so that all students from all countries are treated the same, and not have this differential approach?

I'll start with Mr. Cimon and then go down the same line as I did previously.

[Yan Cimon]

Our position is that any barrier that stops students from coming to Canada should be removed, and the treatment of those international students should be consistent across the board. For example, there is no justification for why an international student who wants to come to Canada and originates from Africa would have more constraints than someone coming from an emerging country in Asia, for example. We have tremendous success rates with African students in how they succeed in our programs, and we have a great alumni network that can testify to that.