Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 29th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Please allow the minister to answer the question.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

We do still have to fight against terrorist financing, which is important. We have to balance between the two, so we are giving a sufficient degree of flexibility to humanitarian organizations. We are very happy with the bill, by the way, but it still allows us to fight terrorism.

If you go in the direction you have recommended, Mr. Genuis, you open up the possibility that somebody could try to work around the—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Do you think the American and the British rules are inadequate?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I think we have chosen the best set of rules that apply to Canadian structures.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

The implication is that the Americans and the British aren't serious—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Mr. Genuis. Your time is up.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

—or don't have serious and effective regimes on this. I think they're—

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

No, not at all. It's just that they have different structures, with much more discretion on the part of their elected officials to act. Their discretion is elsewhere.

The Attorney General in the United States is an investigating attorney general, which I am not. It's a very different set of systems. We've tailored the best set for ours.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you. I'm sorry for interrupting. The time is up for Mr. Genuis.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kayabaga, for six minutes.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to start my questions by thanking the minister for taking the time to appear at this committee and for answering these very important questions for the many people in our communities.

As Canadians we do take pride in our history of helping other countries, countries that are in the most vulnerable situations. We have a long-standing commitment, as a government, toward Afghanistan. The work that you've done and that we've done reflects our values as Canadians. We have to continue to provide pathways to provide humanitarian aid in ways that don't violate our strong anti-terrorism laws.

Could you comment on what criminal laws apply in Canada with respect to financing terrorism?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

As I mentioned in a more cryptic fashion in my opening presentation, there are several financing of terrorism offences in the Criminal Code: providing or collecting property, intending or knowing, so wilful recklessness, that it will be used to carry out a terrorist activity; and providing or making available property, intending or knowing that it will be used by a terrorist activity or terrorist group. Those are the intentional offences. There is also using property for the purpose of carrying out a terrorist activity, or possessing property intending that it be used. Aiding and abetting all of the above are also offences under the Criminal Code.

These offences apply to Canadians outside of Canada, but also to persons who are not necessarily Canadian citizens but ordinarily resident in Canada. All of these are listed in the Criminal Code. We have created the ability to create exemptions and given that power to the Minister of Public Safety, in order to allow humanitarian aid and assistance to happen.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

We've heard a lot of misinformation that people like to put out there and confuse Canadians on what we're actually doing. Could you tell us why the humanitarian aid regime in Canada is embedded within the Criminal Code?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

That was a decision, again, as I mentioned cryptically in my opening remarks, made in the wake of 9/11 to have very strong terrorist financing provisions in the Criminal Code in order to get at the kinds of activities, direct and indirect, that were used to finance terrorist activity. In the moment they were done, they were done for the right reasons.

They were a strong set of provisions, but they were done quickly and we now have a different situation in which we have what was previously a terrorist sect in Afghanistan becoming the de facto regime in Afghanistan. We had already declared them a terrorist entity under the Criminal Code, and they became a de facto regime. We expose, therefore, a number of humanitarian groups to the risk of prosecution under the Criminal Code, given the definitions we came up with in 2001. This is a way to balance, in a safe and secure way, those interests and give them certainty that they won't be prosecuted for what they're doing.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Again, for the sake of the misinformation that's out there right now, could you also comment on whether or not this would undermine our ability to combat terrorism in Canada?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

No, it shouldn't, because the baseline provision is still a Criminal Code provision and what we carve out is an exceptional regime. A humanitarian group will apply to the minister, detail the kinds of activities they are undertaking or would like to undertake and then the minister will be able to grant an exemption. For other groups, other activities, those Criminal Code provisions will still apply.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

I still have time, so maybe you can share some insight on what the process would look like. How closely will the departments and agencies be working together to move quickly on this?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

That's probably a question best addressed to the Minister of Public Safety when you see him in short order. Again, from what I've seen him say at the introductory press conference, he would like to work closely with the agencies. He's already invited them to start thinking about what they would like to do and apply for. My sense is that he will work closely and expeditiously with each agency as they apply.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Could you speak to how this proposed framework minimizes the risk of benefits occurring to the Taliban or other terrorist entities as well?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

By asking agencies to think through their activities, it certainly, I suppose, predicts the kinds of activities as well as the kinds of expenses they are going to undertake in Afghanistan, which allows us to tailor what we're doing.

Again, we want first and foremost for these groups to be able to undertake humanitarian activities in a safe and secure way in Afghanistan. If there are some incidental tax payments or other things that might go to the regime, that may be something the minister will take into account and allow to happen. However, as I had stated, the original Criminal Code provisions remain in place for everything else, so it helps us keep an eye on the larger picture of terrorist financing at the same time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

We will proceed to Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe for six minutes.

Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe, please begin.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Minister, thank you for being here. I understand that you were anxiously awaiting your appearance before the committee today and I thank you for that.

At the February 7, 2022, meeting of the Special Committee on Afghanistan, I first asked a question about Canadian NGOs not being able to do their work on the ground in Afghanistan under Canada's Criminal Code. On February 17, 2022, I sought unanimous consent to introduce a motion to permit Canadian NGOs to do their work on the ground without fear of prosecution, and as I understood it, the cabinet blocked that motion. Subsequently, a number of ministers and NGOs appeared before the committee.

So the problem was identified quite some time ago. Why did it take so long for this bill to be introduced, Mr. Minister?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

First, I must say that the bill was introduced by the Minister of Public Safety.

Secondly, I—

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Yes, but it has to do with the Criminal Code.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I know that, but many of the amendments to the Criminal Code fall under that minister's responsibility. Obviously, I am responsible for the Criminal Code, but parts of the specific policy we're talking about fall under another minister's and another department's responsibility.

I obviously can't speak to cabinet discussions, as they are subject to cabinet confidence and solicitor-client privilege.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

I just want to know why it took so long. I'm not asking you for privileged information.