Citizenship and Immigration Committee on March 29th, 2023

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

Before we go to Ms. Kwan, I will just remind you that all questions should be directed through the chair and, please, one person at a time.... If a question is being asked, opportunity should be provided to the witness to answer the question.

We will now proceed to Ms. Kwan.

You have six minutes, Ms. Kwan. Please begin.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister and officials, for being here today. I think we've been waiting for a long time to engage with you. We very much appreciate this.

The NDP, of course—through my colleagues Heather McPherson, who is the foreign affairs critic, and Alistair MacGregor, who is the public safety critic—wrote to the government on this issue back in December 2021. Subsequently, a follow-up letter was written, in February, to various ministers, asking why action couldn't be taken.

This was especially in light of the testimony presented to the Special Committee on Afghanistan by NGOs that were unable to provide aid on the ground to people who were in desperate need. In fact, World Vision indicated—as did a number of NGOs that came—that, because of these anti-terrorism laws, children were dying of malnutrition. They had packets ready to go and ready to be delivered on the ground, in order to save lives. They were unable to do so.

I'm really struggling to understand why it's taken, basically, two years for Canada to get to this stage, where this Criminal Code change is finally before us for deliberation.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for the question.

Look, I understand the frustration. Certainly, there was a challenge in front of us, in Afghanistan. It was a rather unique situation: a terrorist sect that then became a de facto government and authority.

My role, in all of this, is to act and look at the legal context. I think we have, now, in this law, a piece of legislation that amends the Criminal Code and works within the Canadian context. It protects these organizations and their very good work on the ground, while respecting the various structures of investigation and prosecution in Canada. It ensures they won't be prosecuted.

This, in my view, is the best way forward. It is in response to a very complex situation.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Minister, that doesn't answer the question of why it took so long.

In the Afghanistan committee, we had different ministers come forward. Each of us, across party lines—to be honest with you—asked the various different ministers about this. Each of them passed the buck and said it was someone else's responsibility. Ultimately, they pinned it on you, the justice minister, in terms of the law that needed to be dealt with, with respect to the Criminal Code. It's taken two years for us to get here.

I suppose it's water under the bridge, so to speak. It's accepting that lives were lost because Canada took so long. Other jurisdictions managed to do a carve-out without this long, arduous process we have to engage in.

Now we have this legislation before us, and there are still problems.

Doctors Without Borders wrote and indicated they're deeply concerned with the legislation. In fact, they're saying they can't support it. They're saying that it's “incompatible with the level of flexibility and urgency required for delivering emergency humanitarian response.” They indicated that this legislation does not provide for a humanitarian exemption in the Criminal Code to remove any risk that their staff or their organization could be charged with a criminal offence for delivering medical care to a patient in a place where Canadian anti-terror laws apply.

I would love to hear your response to that. Why could we not have brought in legislation to ensure that a humanitarian exemption is being applied?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

First of all, I disagree with Doctors Without Borders' characterization. The law, as proposed, provides an extremely large degree of flexibility to the Minister of Public Safety to grant a humanitarian exemption, including for the kind of work Doctors Without Borders provides on the ground. I disagree quite strongly with their interpretation. I think this law is adequate to do that. I think it does, in fact, allow them an exemption from prosecution.

Again, I'm not going to pass the buck, in the sense that I won't talk about things discussed in cabinet. That's a matter of cabinet confidence.

The Canadian legal system is such that there are independent prosecutions undertaken by various Crowns across Canada—federal and provincial. There are independent investigations undertaken by police authorities. They are independent of me and the government. There's no way, as the Attorney General in the government, that I can tell a prosecutor to prosecute or not to prosecute. That is a power other countries have, like the United States, for example. They can carve it out.

We can't carve it out in the same way. We needed a piece of legislation. We now have a piece of legislation. We have, I think, a good piece of legislation.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Okay.

It's still interesting to note that other countries were able to find carve-outs and we couldn't. We lost two years in that process, while there was urgent need for people who were dying.

Now, with regard to the question around the legislation, what Doctors Without Borders is saying is that they would have to apply for a provision to do this work. What if they say no? Should they, then, not provide the medical care?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

The Minister of Public Safety—and, again, it's a question you can ask him—has undertaken to look at these applications expeditiously. We understand the needs that have arisen—

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

I'm sorry for interrupting, Minister. The time is up for Ms. Kwan. You'll get an opportunity in the second round to answer her question.

We will now proceed to Mr. Maguire for five minutes.

Mr. Maguire, you can begin, please.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just want to add a few things to some of your comments that have already been said, Mr. Minister. Thank you for being here, by the way.

Canadian humanitarian agencies have been calling for that legislation for quite some time. I'm deeply troubled that it took your government this long to introduce Bill C-41.

There are millions of Afghans who are in desperate need of food and other supplies, critical supplies. Time is still of the essence. You must have known of the dire straits that Afghan women and children are currently in. This has been asked before, but in light of the fact that, as you say, the minister is going to be here shortly—we're not aware he's going to be here before at least the end of April—I'm going to ask you again.

What's your excuse for taking so long to table a relatively straightforward piece of legislation? Don't you talk to the ministers?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Again, I'm not at liberty to disclose the kinds of things one discusses around the cabinet table. That's a matter of cabinet confidence.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

You were talking to him. Weren't you?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I think the legal conclusion that's evident in this piece of legislation is that a specific law was needed, given the structures that are present in the Canadian system. As I said, they were brought in by Rob Nicholson—prosecutorial independence. I think they're a good thing, but that means I can't tell prosecutors when to exercise and how to exercise their discretion. Therefore—

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

What took them so long to bring the legislation in?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

—we had to resort to a piece of legislation. The Minister of Public Safety has committed to moving expeditiously once this legislation is passed, and I hope you will pass this legislation quickly.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

It's been years.

When drafting this legislation, your government would have reviewed what other countries are doing to ensure their humanitarian agencies can deliver aid. As has been discussed earlier, they did.

What other allied country has created a process for humanitarian groups to apply for government approval before delivering assistance to Afghans? Have you not talked to other countries to find out what kind of co-operation could take place there as well?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Our officials have been looking at what happens in other countries, and I'll ask them to supplement my answer in a moment. However, what I will say is that, in the Canadian system, with independent criminal investigations, with independent prosecutions, we needed something that didn't rely on a simple carve-out because I can't direct prosecutors to prosecute or not. I can't direct the police to investigate or not.

If there is a question of interpretation, it will be incumbent on those authorities to exercise that discretion.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Here's a little different twist to the question that's already been asked.

Joseph Belliveau, the executive director of Doctors Without Borders, stated that Bill C-41 is “unduly restrictive, and it should be replaced with a general humanitarian exemption.” There was a decision made by your government. I'm wondering why it decided to amend the Criminal Code rather than grant a humanitarian exemption.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Granting a humanitarian exemption is still an amendment to the Criminal Code, first of all.

Second, the fight against terrorism is still important. Quite frankly, if we had done that, certain parliamentarians would probably be angry, saying we've become soft on terrorism. We can't have that happen either. It is still important we track terrorist activities, including a government like the Taliban and including other groups around the world. This piece of legislation effects a very important balance.

The fight against terrorism is still important, but the fight to provide humanitarian aid on the ground is also important. We have carved out a pretty good exemption between the two, using the Criminal Code, because that's what we had to do.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

We and Canadians certainly know that, Mr. Minister, and you've certainly been soft on trying to help the folks in Afghanistan who helped our troops get back here as well.

It's important to note that the process for humanitarian agencies to seek this application to provide aid in Afghanistan is not contained within this legislation and will be determined later through regulations. I know you had a discussion on this with my colleague who was here just a few moments ago, but this, undoubtedly, will result in more delays.

Can you confirm that work is being done drafting those regulations and that you are actively consulting with humanitarian agencies to ensure that the process is as efficient and straightforward as it possibly can be? When will these regulations be available?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I would ask Rob Brookfield to add in.

[Robert Brookfield]

To clarify, the bill does provide for the possibility of regulations, but the power of the Minister of Public Safety to issue authorizations is not restricted to the existing regulations. The Minister of Public Safety would have discretion to use that power without the need for regulations in the first place.

[The Chair, Liberal, Salma Zahid]

Thank you.

The time is up, Mr. Maguire.

We will now proceed to Ms. Lalonde.

Ms. Lalonde, you will have five minutes. You can please begin.

[Marie-France Lalonde, Liberal, Orléans, ON]

Mr. Minister, thank you very much for taking part in this committee meeting.

I had the honour and privilege of being with you when Bill C‑41 was announced. It was very well received by the people who were there. It also shows how important cooperation is to the government, since your department is not the only one involved, as you so rightly said. In fact, several departments were involved in the collaborative effort that led to introducing Bill C‑41.

I know that we like to talk here about what's not, but let's not forget that of our commitment of the 40,000 there are close to 30,000 Afghans here in Canada currently

Minister, I know that the Minister of International Development, during that particular conference, referred to how, since August 2021, we have been still providing humanitarian assistance in many forms through various organizations, such as the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross. From that perspective, there may be individuals who could say that the law already did allow for humanitarian aid to be provided.

Can you share some thoughts about that and the importance of Bill C-41 being brought in?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Would you prefer that I respond to you in French or English?