Evidence of meeting #57 for Citizenship and Immigration in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was afghanistan.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Brookfield  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Glenn Gilmour  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Wayne D. Eyre  Chief of the Defence Staff, Canadian Armed Forces, Department of National Defence
Bill Matthews  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Paul Prévost  Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 57 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Citizenship and Immigration.

Today we will continue our study of the government's response to the final report of the special committee on Afghanistan. With us is the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada.

Welcome, Minister, and thanks for appearing before the committee.

He is joined by officials from the Department of Justice. Today we have Robert Brookfield, director general and senior general counsel, criminal law policy section; and Glenn Gilmour, counsel, criminal law policy section.

Welcome, everybody.

Minister, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

On a point of order, Madam Chair. I have no interpretation.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Okay. Wait just one second.

4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe Bloc Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

It's working now.

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you.

Minister, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks and then we will go into rounds of questioning. Please begin.

4:30 p.m.

LaSalle—Émard—Verdun Québec

Liberal

David Lametti LiberalMinister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I wish to thank the members of this committee for inviting me to speak about the government response to the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan called “Honouring Canada's Legacy in Afghanistan: Responding to the Humanitarian Crisis and Helping People Reach Safety”.

I'd also like to thank my colleagues from the Department of Justice, Robert Brookfield and Glenn Gilmour.

My remarks will focus on those recommendations from the final report that relate to my responsibilities as the Minister of Justice, specifically those that relate to changes to the Criminal Code.

As you likely know, my colleague the Minister of Public Safety introduced Bill C-41 earlier this month to address the issues raised in this area of the report. It has now been referred to the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, and I hope all colleagues can work together to advance this important legislation expeditiously.

Recommendations 10 and 11 of the final report of the Special Committee on Afghanistan called for two things. First, they called for clarity in the law and, in particular, a specific exemption to the terrorism-financing offence in paragraph 83.03(b) to allow registered Canadian organizations to deliver much-needed humanitarian assistance and other basic goods to the people of Afghanistan without facing the risk of criminal liability. Second, they called for the government to review the terrorism-financing provisions in the Criminal Code and to take the urgent legislative steps necessary to ensure that those provisions do not unduly restrict legitimate humanitarian action that complies with international humanitarian principles and law.

After the terrorist attacks in the United States on September 11, 2001, Canada responded to United Nations Security Council Resolution 1373 and enacted, within months, the Anti-terrorism Act, 2001. Among other things, this act amended the Criminal Code to create several offences designed to prevent acts of terrorism, which included three terrorism-financing offences.

Enacted rapidly to deal with the important threat from terrorism that the world was facing, those offences are broad and strict in their application.

One of these offences is found in paragraph 83.03(b) of the Criminal Code. That offence makes it a crime to directly or indirectly collect, make available, provide or invite someone to provide property or financial or related services, knowing they will be used by or will benefit a terrorist group. The legislation created in 2001 does not create any statutory exemptions to that offence.

In contrast, the regimes of many of our allies, including the U.S. and the United Kingdom, are more flexible and can accommodate targeted exceptions, which has allowed them to amend their regimes more quickly in response to the current reality in Afghanistan and to contribute to international aid efforts.

This brings us to the situation in Afghanistan today. Before August 2021, many NGOs were working diligently to provide humanitarian assistance and other kinds of assistance to the people of Afghanistan, often with financial assistance from governments.

As we are all too well aware, all that changed in the spring and summer of 2021 when the Taliban swept into power. Although Canada does not recognize the Taliban regime as government, the Taliban has de facto authority in Afghanistan and performs normal state functions, such as tax collection.

Looking at it from a Canadian perspective, there are good reasons for concern about the application of the Criminal Code to the activities of Canadian NGOs and government officials who assist them. Should they make payments, knowing that some of those monies would go to the Taliban, a terrorist group, for example by paying for salaries of Afghan employees who are subject to income tax, they could risk criminal liability under the terrorist financing offence in paragraph 83.03(b).

Bill C-41 will create an authorization regime that would allow the Minister of Public Safety to grant an authorization to Canadian organizations to conduct activities falling within a specified purpose, such as providing humanitarian assistance or providing health care or education, in Afghanistan or other areas controlled by a terrorist group. Those who receive an authorization and respect its terms would be shielded from the risk of criminal liability when carrying out those authorized activities. A national security review would be required, and other procedural safeguards would remain in place.

This change would allow Canadian humanitarian organizations to continue operating in Afghanistan and to deliver desperately needed assistance, while continuing to protect Canadians through robust anti-terrorist laws and close oversight.

Thank you again, Madam Chair, for inviting me to speak. I'm available to answer your questions.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Salma Zahid

Thank you, Minister.

We will now proceed with our first round of questioning for six minutes.

Mr. Genuis, you can please begin. You will have six minutes for your round of questioning.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister.

Minister, under Bill C-41, how long do you expect it to take to approve an application from an organization?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

That's probably a question better addressed to the Minister of Public Safety when he's in front of you, I believe, in the very near future.

I know, from having heard him present the bill both in the House of Commons and at a press conference, that he would like to move expeditiously in order to allow humanitarian groups that are working in Afghanistan to move as quickly as they possibly can.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Expeditious isn't a timeline. I know that no representative of your government has said this publicly. These timelines are very important for these organizations.

As you alluded, we're far behind our allies. The Afghanistan committee made all-party recommendations in June of last year. The foreign affairs committee adopted a motion calling for action in the fall, and we're already at the end of March here.

The question isn't so much about the timeline for passing the legislation. Once the legislation passes, how long will it take to turn around applications from organizations? We certainly don't want to lose another winter of not being able to have Canadian organizations involved in the humanitarian response.

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

That's certainly a fair question, Mr. Genuis, but it is a question better addressed to the Minister of Public Safety.

Again, my understanding is that his intention will be to move as expeditiously as possible with those applications once the law is passed.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Could you or your colleagues work to follow up in writing with the committee, either directly from your department or from Public Safety, with what the estimated or the desired timelines would be for approving applications?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Again, it falls within his responsibilities. I will allow him to make the engagement and the undertaking.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

How broad will the applications from organizations be able to be? If an organization is making an application to provide assistance, will it have to be for a limited period of time, or will they have a “permanent until revoked” authorization to run similar kinds of projects?

Will the same authorization potentially apply to multiple organizations working together or on similar projects, or will they be narrowly constrained in terms of organization and the amount of time?

4:35 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

The point of the law is to allow a sufficient degree of flexibility for humanitarian agencies working on the ground, while still protecting our ability to combat terrorism and terrorist financing. It's critical that we strike a balance. The law is meant to strike a balance.

My understanding is that humanitarian groups will apply to the minister, so, again, it's probably a question best left to the Minister of Public Safety in terms of how he's going to exercise his discretion. My understanding of the law is that it is flexible and that it will allow for the Minister of Public Safety to make those determinations.

In the likely course of events, it will be humanitarian organizations applying with a description of the activities that they want to undertake. The exemption will be tailored according to that application.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

From the perspective of the Criminal Code amendments, what you're saying is that the powers that are given to the minister are extremely broad in terms of whether the minister is going to use that discretion to apply broader exemptions without time limits or narrower exemptions with time limits.

It's essentially entirely a matter of discretion with the minister.

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

That's certainly my understanding.

Rob, do you want to add to that?

4:40 p.m.

Robert Brookfield Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

The legislation as drafted, if it gets passed, states, in proposed subsection 83.‍032(1), “to carry out, in a specified geographic area that is controlled by a terrorist 10 group, a specified activity that would otherwise be prohibited”. That's the power to the Minister of Public Safety.

There are timelines on that, but his discretion is fairly unbound in that circumstance.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Are there limits to the time he can set it for?

4:40 p.m.

Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Robert Brookfield

There's a requirement to reapply after five years.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

It's five years, okay.

March 29th, 2023 / 4:40 p.m.

Glenn Gilmour Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

You can renew the initial time frame for each authorization. It's a maximum of five years, but it can be renewed.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Thank you.

In the time I have left, why not have legislation that generally says that organizations that have the appropriate level of oversight and that are engaged in humanitarian activities that are, in particular ways, minimizing any payments that go to local authorities...? Why not provide that exception on a more general basis, rather than simply having a piece of legislation that empowers the minister to do whatever he or she wants in terms of granting or not granting, or giving it to some organizations or not? That is potentially very costly and labour-intensive on the part of the organizations as well as the government.

Why not do what our allies have done and provide a more general humanitarian exemption?

4:40 p.m.

Liberal

David Lametti Liberal LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC

Again, it's particular to Canada and the way in which we have very tough anti-terrorist financing laws embedded in the Criminal Code. We do still have—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Just to jump in on that, wouldn't the Americans and the British say they have tough laws as well, though?